maltodextrin

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maltodextrin

Post by BDP » 1 year ago

Hi,

I'd like to hear from anyone who's had experience with using maltodextrin powder. Did it help achieve the desired objective, and were you happy with the results?

The intended use is to add gravity without fermentability. How to Brew lists it as contributing about 40 ppg, and it is marginally fermentable.

Is there a way to deal with this in BIABacus so that it:
* adjusts the hop bill (upward)
* adjusts OG, FG, etc. according to the gravity contribution and lower fermentability
* does not affect TWN

I suspect that because this is not a grain, it does not play nicely with the BIABacus calculations.

Thanks,
BDP


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Post by PistolPatch » 1 year ago

Not too sure what use I'll be here BDP. I get confused on the names for a start :). I've used carapils (carafoam/dextrine) on two light versions of an IPA two years ago. I've never used maltodextrin (a powder) and I believe there are several different versions of it. I'm guessing that carapils might be a better option on an all-grain brew but I'm not sure :think:.

Also, I imagine your aim here is to improve mouth-feel/body or make a lighter beer rather than adding to your FG - the higher FG is just a side-effect and a very small one. Another issue is the beer style as this will affect how much carapils (and I assume maltodextrin also) you can get away with.

Unfortunately, I did my 'light' brews in a later unreleased version of the BIABacus which handles all that sort of stuff but, from memory, I think PR 1.3T will also do the job. Let me have a look...

TWN

Okay, if you do choose to use the maltodextrin instead of dextrose, then just type a 'B' beside it on the left-hand side of Section C. (Also see 'Percentage' below).

Adjust the Hop Bill

Really need to know what you want the maltodextrin for and in what style. For example, for my 'light' (only 2.5% ABV) versions of an IPA, I used the same amount of hops as I would normally use in a full-strength version but I mashed a bit higher and also used 7% carapils. Next time I'd go 15%.

Even if I was brewing a normal beer but used maltodextrin, the maltodextrin won't be relevant to IBU estimates (long story I'll go into later if you want me to).

OG

As mentioned above, maltodextrins aren't all the same. Some might contribute 35 ppg and others 40 ppg. The likelihood is that you won't know so don't make any adjustments in Section Y as the BIABacus default works on a bit over 35ppg.

Percentages

From the above, we can see that the maltodextrin or carapils/dextrine/carafoam is not going to change our OG. So, write your recipe as normal without considering any of these. Let's say that the 'normal' recipe results in you needing 3500 grams of base malt. Let's also say you want to use 10% of the entire grain bill as carapils or maltodextrin. Add that on another line, give it a weight of 350 grams and change your base malt to 3150 grams.

FG

On the FG side, firstly, don't get too carried away with FG estimates as they are just estimates and many things affect what you will actually get - water, mash temp, yeast, fermentation temp etc. If you are only using 5%, I wouldn't even bother working it out. (In fact, I wouldn't even bother working it out even on much higher amounts - you'll see why :)). If I did want to work it out, I think I would do it this way...

Put your recipe in as normal. Let's say that the recipe has an OG of 1.050 and you used 10% carapils. Let's assume that maltodextrin or carapils has no fermentability and that you have used 10%. That means, your "real" OG is 1.050 less 10% = 1.045. Change your BIABacus OG to 1.045 and see what the FG reads now. It will display 1.011 versus 1.013. More accurately, it is actually 1.011/3 versus 1.012/5. So, it really isn't worth mucking around with. (If you do this, remember to change back to 1.050 as changing OG affects all your weights as well.)

So

Main thing for now, for me anyway, is what beer style you want to use it in and what you really want to achieve from it.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 19 Apr 2016, 19:33, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by thughes » 1 year ago

BDP, if you are looking to increase mouth feel or make a more "chewy" and creamy beer I would suggest experimenting with adding some flaked oats to your grist. While adjusting mash temps can result in less fermentability and more mouth feel, you will find that it is much more repeatable to add a known amount of flaked oats as opposed to having to nail your mash temps exactly each time you brew.

If you are looking for head retention and some really nice lacing in the glass I would suggest adding a small percentage of malted wheat to your grist.

If you are looking for both head retention and mouth feel, carapils is the way to go.

Keep in mind that maltodextrine tends to react in most people's lower GI tract to produce some wonderful beer farts and in extreme cases can make some people bloat/cramp.YMMV.

---Todd
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Post by ShorePoints » 1 year ago

This is the kind of information that will help me - thanks for the original question and answers so far.
I tinkered with small amounts of maltodextrin powder to improve or increase body/mouthfeel in an otherwise "thin" beer recipe. At low levels (2%) the change was unnoticed, as mash temperature probably has a bigger impact. At higher levels (6%) other things changed and it was hard to say what benefit there was, especially considering adverse effects in the GI tract. A food lab around the corner from my old lab used to experiment with polydextrose as a heat-stable bulking agent in baked goods. Free cookies! But within 30 minutes, my stomach could always tell that it wasn't going to be free. Maltodextrin is not as powerful, but why use it when you can follow Todd's advice and do better? Thanks, Todd :salute: .
I've used flaked oats a few times lately. I toasted 454 gms (10% by wt.) in the oven before adding them to my last mash and noticed that when lifting the bag, it was heavier than expected and needed squeezing. Is that to be expected for flaked grains? Also, my brews seem to benefit from longer storage times before consuming; much better at 3-4 months than at 6 weeks. Could that be attributed somewhat to flaked oats as well? :scratch: Keep experimenting. The variables will eventually yield to experience.
Bob

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Post by thughes » 1 year ago

Flaked oats will become oatmeal in your mash so you will notice a bit more heft when lifting the bag and it may also become a consideration for those using recirculating systems as it tends to clog the bag a bit (like oatmeal will). I just use "instant oats" flakes (eg: Quaker Instant Oatmeal) as they are already gelatinized and you can toss them straight into the mash; whole oats or rolled oats have to be cooked first before adding them to a mash.

As you have discovered Bob, using oats gives you the additional option of toasting them to add a different flavor and possibly some color (albeit not very much).

As for the longer storage times, all I can figure is that we typically use oats in styles that benefit from prolonged cellaring (stouts, porters, etc.) so it may be that you just happened to have had enough patience to let that batch sit longer (maybe because you had other stuff in the pipeline being ready to drink first)?


---Todd
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Post by BDP » 1 year ago

Hi Folks,

So glad I posted my question. The responses have made for informative reading. Thanks Pat, Bob, and Todd. And a belated Happy Birthday to Pat! :) Hope it was a good one.

Some background first. I was recently in the US, and struck up a conversation with the brewer at a micro brewery about mouthfeel, body, etc. He mentioned that he uses maltodextrin powder in some brews, but didn't specify other details. So my questions here were mostly exploratory, to learn more before I attempt to use this in a recipe.

Pat, I'll play around with the settings you suggested, but am wondering why "the maltodextrin won't be relevant to IBU estimates". If hop utilization is a function of the gravity of the wort, then a higher gravity would presumably negatively affect utilization. However, the affects might be negligible given the relative percentage of the maltodextrin, which is how I interpret your statement above.

I brewed an oatmeal stout recipe from BCS this past Sunday, which has some toasted oatmeal, so I'll be interested to see the effect. A nod to Bob.

Some convincing arguments in favour of using the suggested grains and adjuncts, so I'll keep that in mind. However, I can't help but remain curious, and would be tempted to try some maltodextrin at some point in the future, just to see what the results are.

Cheers!
BDP

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Post by thughes » 1 year ago

BDP wrote:However, I can't help but remain curious, and would be tempted to try some maltodextrin at some point in the future, just to see what the results are.
Beer farts!


Glad we could be of some assistance, the feedback means a lot to us. Keep us posted if you do experiment.


---Todd
Last edited by thughes on 20 Apr 2016, 19:59, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by PistolPatch » 1 year ago

I'm glad you posted as well BDP. I love Todd's posts - he's always got brilliant stuff you'd never find (well, I can't find) anywhere else. Thanks Todd :thumbs:.

As for your question as to why maltodextrin won't be relevant to IBU calcs...

Whilst IBU calcs have a factor in them based on OG, more recent research has shown that the OG isn't the real factor. The real factor is... let's call it "solids".

I'm not sure if I'll explain this well but, as usual, I'll have a crack :).

What's the real difference between a high gravity brew and a low gravity brew? In all-grain at least, the big difference is in the amount of 'crap' (solids) you have floating about. Hops give out oils and, as we know, oils cling to solids. So a high gravity brew (that has more crap/solids) will allow less oils into the wort.

Make sense?

...

If that does make sense, then you can ask the some questions. For example, would using carapils (a grain) hold on to more oils than using maltodextrin (a powder)?

I don't know.

I would imagine that using oats instead of carapils would retain more hop oils but, then again, I don't really know.

This brings my meandering mind back to a few things...

Firstly, I know you have mentioned mouth-feel and body but I would still like to know what beer style/s you want to apply this to.

Secondly, and more importantly, at the moment especially*, to advance your brewing in areas such as this, you need to think beyond the numbers (especially IBU's). I'm really proud of the BIABacus; even in its current spreadsheet form (daunting first appearance), it's a pretty wild and amazingly simple tool.

I'm currently conversing with Todd on how to improve it so it can also be used as a vehicle to translate experience such as Todd has into numbers that the rest of us can follow.

In the meantime, don't get too hung up on the numbers ;),
Pat
Last edited by PistolPatch on 20 Apr 2016, 22:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by jhough » 1 year ago

Todd , thanks for the info on using "breakfast oats " . Guess I always paid to much for flaked oats at the HBS. Will know better next time. J

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Post by thughes » 1 year ago

jhough wrote:Todd , thanks for the info on using "breakfast oats " . Guess I always paid to much for flaked oats at the HBS. Will know better next time. J
Same deal with rice if you're planning on making a light American pilsner or perhaps a cream ale......"Minute Rice" is exponentially cheaper at the grocery store than brewing rice purchased at the LHBS.


---Todd
Last edited by thughes on 21 Apr 2016, 02:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Mad_Scientist » 1 year ago

thughes wrote:
Keep in mind that maltodextrine tends to react in most people's lower GI tract to produce some wonderful beer farts and in extreme cases can make some people bloat/cramp.YMMV.

---Todd
That's called Windy Pops, in the UK.
Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 21 Apr 2016, 03:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by ShorePoints » 1 year ago

In the PistolPatch post #8 above, he talks about the 'crap' in the kettle having an impact on IBUs of higher OG beers and it makes sense. It has to do with hop oils having affinity for the various suspended solids and agglomeration of particles and the hop compounds' solubility in the mixture over an eventually declining temperature range. After yeast starts working, the solvent starts changing to a mix of EtOH/H2O at new temperatures.

Aren't variables fun? It may seem like hand-waving to make up an explanation, however, it is similar to using (NOT for beer, please) decolorizing carbon or filter aids to glom onto compounds in solution in chemistry lab. Yes, there are solids that can preferentially attract certain compounds right out of solution, they do not have to be insolubles at the start to be removed by filtration later.

Enough, let's brew beer knowing that sometimes more hops are needed before you get to too much.

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Post by Mad_Scientist » 1 year ago

Okay, now I'm worried. I transfer the entire contents from the kettle into no chill. How much hop oils are lost into my trub? In a 6 gallon no chill container I have at least 3 L of trub. Do I need to change my process?

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Post by ShorePoints » 1 year ago

MS - If you were brewing for the first time, you might find IBUs a little short if you had lots of trub in a cube. By now, you certainly have tons of experience and have already compensated for hop oil adsorption (no matter how much) to get the bitterness, flavor and whatever aroma you can get out of the cube. I saw somewhere on the forum more than a year ago that adding 10% extra hops would help when first using BIAB. Maybe the BIABacus has that already covered in the formulas, but I like what hoppiness results from adding a bit more across the board. You have no need to adjust unless you find it to your taste. My subjective IBU scale is probably different from yours. That's different TO yours, outside the US.


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Post by BDP » 1 year ago

Main thing for now, for me anyway, is what beer style you want to use it in and what you really want to achieve from it.
I can only speak to the specific recipes I have brewed to date. Assuming that the maltodextrin powder imparts the claimed characteristics (and I'm not talking farts :) ), then there are a few that I would try with say a 4oz addition. These were an IPA, an English nut brown, and (perhaps oddly since the recipe contained 50% wheat malt) a heffeweizen. :shock:
Last edited by BDP on 22 Apr 2016, 10:45, edited 1 time in total.


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Post by PistolPatch » 1 year ago

BDP: You mention 4oz. How much were you originally using?

MS: I like ShorePoints posts above :salute:. I don't think the no-chilling into the cube is going to retain any more hop oils than it would had you actively chilled - both methods still have identical solids.

One thing that is worrying me is 3 L of trub in the cube? Are you draining every last drop from the kettle? How long is it staying in the cube before pitching?

Personally, I'd prefer to see more trub staying in the kettle rather than ending up in the cube especially if keeping the cube for a long time before pitching.

I also think though, if there is nothing wrong with your beer, then what's to worry about?

:)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 23 Apr 2016, 00:01, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by BDP » 1 year ago

Sorry PistolPatch, but have have never used it before. Was hoping to glean some wisdom from the BIABrewer.info gurus before I gave it a try. I have a recipe in mind where I may use it. When I do, I'll be sure to post back here with my opinion :peace:

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Post by Squared » 1 year ago

I've used malto with good results. I had entered a recipe wrong and only realized it when I tasted the finished product. After looking at my notes I was right....a thin beer :(

So I put 500g of malto into a sauce pot and boiled it up and cooled it in the fridge, added it to the keg. Now of course it is all subjective really but I felt it really repaired the problem of mouthfeel and when I served it at a party no one seemed to think it was thin and drank the whole keg up

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