Going Simple a couple of questions.

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Going Simple a couple of questions.

Post by aamcle » 1 year ago

I'm swapping over to true BIAB no more messing about with PID's and recirculation and I'll be No Chilling.

* Is it worth mounting a tap in the cubes lid?

I bottle my beer and bulk prime.

* Would boiling any "flame out" hops with my priming sugar and filtering into the bottling bucket work?
I'd probably have to give the hops a rinse with a bit of boiling water to get all the sugar out.


Adding the hops with the sugar would mean one less addition and so reduced chance of contamination, I doubt that it would work with pellet hops even though I use my bag as a hop sock.


ATB. aamcle


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Post by aamcle » 1 year ago

I've just realised I've been dumb, I use a BIAB bag as a hop sock it hangs from a hook above the kettle allowing the hops to swim freely so no hops go into the cube.

With that mod to the process do I need to make ANY Changes to the hop scheduled?


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Last edited by aamcle on 06 Jun 2016, 15:17, edited 1 time in total.


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Going Simple a couple of questions.

Post by Contrarian » 1 year ago

Flavour and aroma hop additions are really a dark art unless you know precisely what another Brewers process is after flame out.

For example 2 Brewers that chill. Brewer one after flame out immediately starts running a chiller and gets below 80C, the generally accepted temp for conversion of alpha acids, in 10-15 minutes. Maybe even less.

Brewer 2 turns the flame off and throws the hops in and waits 15 minutes for the currents to die down. Then does a whirlpool and waits another 30 minutes for this to settle before running through a plate chiller into the fermenter.

One flame out addition has at least 45 minutes of exposure above 80C than the other.

Personally I have had good success with waiting for temps to drop to around 85C after flame out before doing a whirlpool and adding hops to it for 20-30 minutes.

I have also added at flame out and then whirlpooled before transferring to the cube and also just added hops directly into the cube before transferring.

I would suggest picking a method at random from what you can read and then adjusting recipes from there based on taste.

Not sure why you would add a tap to your cube lid. I just open it up and transfer from my ball valve with silicone hose.

Some people ferment in their cubes so a tap on the bottom can be handy!


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Going Simple a couple of questions.

Post by aamcle » 1 year ago

I was thinking of using a tap to transfer the cooled wort to a fermenter. Ive seen taps mentioned but not many seem to use them so I suppose that there not a great benefit.

Fermenting in the cube with a tap at the bottom, now that would be handy.


Atb. Aamcle


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Post by Scott » 1 year ago

Hi aamcle,

I have a spigot on my boil kettle and also on both of my Speidel fermenters. I like them and they (overall) work very well for me. Pat Hollingdale and some other well regarded posters on here don't care for them because of added risk of contamination if they don't get cleaned properly...and they are a little more difficult to clean than the same items without the spigots... But if I added a racking cane or other device back to my process, these have to be cleaned too and then what's the difference...? :dunno:

Haven't used a cube for anything. Seems like if you fermented with a cube it might be really hard to clean, and you can't see inside. Much more difficult than a big open mouth fermenter... :scratch: At least that's my perception.


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Going Simple a couple of questions.

Post by aamcle » 1 year ago

I use taps, floppy tubes and I don't get on that well, but I strip clean and sanitise them before use and when I sanitise the FV.

Aamcle


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Post by PistolPatch » 1 year ago

aamcle, as thughes said in another thread, it's really nice to see you simplifying. I'm pretty sure he mentioned how many brewers, including me, have gone through a very long and expensive stage of complicating instead of simplifying. It's usually a fun journey but when you look back at it, you really scratch your head :).

A few notes...

If you are no-chilling, you should not and do not need to have a tap in the cube lid. When you pour from the cube into your fermenter, you want to aerate so a tap offers no advantages, only disadvantages/complications/sources of infection.

If no-chilling into a cube and you want to leave it for some weeks or months, buy some o-rings for the lids. I've done no-chill, left the cube for over a year with no problems but on the second use of the cube, almost all became spoiled if I left them for over a month. Lesson learned was that under high temps, the first seal might work well but on the second run it may not. On long-term storage, after each run, you should remove the seal, clean and sanitise it as well.

Also note that cubes are a lot of work - it's another vessel to be cleaned and sanitised, so, if your aim is to pitch asap and you don't have a chiller, chill over-night in the kettle. For long-term storage, cubes are great (but note my last para).

...

I don't think boiling the flame-out hops with priming sugar is a valid idea, especially rinsing them. Ask us for more info on this as flame-out hops should not be an inconvenience in any way, no matter what your chilling method. (Just saw your second post. As a basic rule, the answer is no. I think Contrarian has given further explanation above. Yep, he has. Also see, Chilling Myths - Asking the Right Questions.)

...

Scott mentioned taps/spigots above. Basically, any tap/spigot or part that can't be easily broken down is a danger. I've written lots on this. Normally I'd write and link to what I have already written but I'm doing a double brew day tomorrow so, I'm going to hand the following back to Scott and let him link and report back :). (I'm only doing this because I know he actually will do it :salute:).

Scott, do an advanced search and look for posts written by me that contain some of the following, "1500" "nostril" "ectoplasm" "visualisation." Hopefully that will get you to the posts I am thinking of. There should be one there that lists, in detail, the process you need to go through to clean and sanitise a kettle tap and that process doesn't even involve dismantling.

...

One last thought. Have you ever wondered why so many new/virgin brewers win at shows? It's much easier to brew a great beer when you are starting out as all your equipment is fresh. As your home brewery ages, every day, is another chance for some slow little problem to sneak in. A home brewer has a heap more sanitisation problems than a craft or commercial brewery does because, in a craft and commercial brewery, nothing gets a chance to stagnate. In our little home breweries, most of our equipment spends most of its time being inactive - which is exactly what the bugs want.

Pretty logical eh? But, it's also the sort of advice that you'll never see written.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 08 Jun 2016, 21:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by aamcle » 1 year ago

Mmm... the only beers I've had to dump because of contamination were chilled in the boiler, it took them until the next afternoon to cool to pitching temperature.

What I have tried in the past is to put the lid (hot) on the kettle and cover it with a StarSan soaked towel held on with bungees.

I have a lot more confidence in cubes, but if I could find a way of protecting the wort as it cooled in the kettle I'd be happy.

I have not tried long term storage, but this is my cleaning routine.

Fill the cube to just over 1/2 full, add bleach allow to stand for a day or more turn it upside down and repeat. This will clean off any visible yeast deposits.

Rinse with water until there's no smell, rinse with hot water and Oxi.

Rinse with StarSan solution drain and use.

It sounds a lot but the amount of actual time/work involved is not that great but I think I'll modify it to include removing and cleaning the seal.


ATB. aamcle
Last edited by aamcle on 09 Jun 2016, 01:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by Rick » 1 year ago

Conversely, I've only lost 2 batches(both from a cube) and 0 from overnight kettle chilling.

Possibly 3 lost now, because I went to ferment a cube of a Belgian Blond about 3 wks ago and the cap seal failed. Who knows how long it was sitting like that, but it smelled fine and the OG hadn't dropped. I fermented it anyway, seems okay but I haven't tasted it yet.


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Going Simple a couple of questions.

Post by aamcle » 1 year ago

May I ask how are you covering/sealing your kettle when letting wort cool in it? I may be doing something wrong.
How are you transferring from the kettle to the FV?

ATB. aamcle

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Post by Rick » 1 year ago

aamcle wrote:May I ask how are you covering/sealing your kettle when letting wort cool in it? I may be doing something wrong.
How are you transferring from the kettle to the FV?

ATB. aamcle
I'm just using my lids. No sanitized towels or anything like many people do. I just turn off the heat, lid on ... and leave them in my barn to cool for 18 hours (usually ready around this amount of time) or so.

Guess I'm a bit lucky that nothing lives in my barn, for now.

With that said, long term I do not recommend 7 Gallon Reliance Aqua-Tainer for a cube. I checked all the seals on my cubes, and most are beginning to dry rot already. I'm lucky enough that I can make my own replacement seals for them, so anyone owning those beware ... they will leak soon enough.
Last edited by Rick on 09 Jun 2016, 20:44, edited 1 time in total.


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Post by aamcle » 1 year ago

Thanks, how are you doing the transfer, pour, tap or syphon?


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Post by Rick » 1 year ago

Always a syphon.


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Post by aamcle » 1 year ago

That's a great way of leaving the trub behind:).

aamcle


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Post by Scott » 1 year ago

PistolPatch wrote:Scott mentioned taps/spigots above. Basically, any tap/spigot or part that can't be easily broken down is a danger. I've written lots on this. Normally I'd write and link to what I have already written but I'm doing a double brew day tomorrow so, I'm going to hand the following back to Scott and let him link and report back :). (I'm only doing this because I know he actually will do it :salute:).

Scott, do an advanced search and look for posts written by me that contain some of the following, "1500" "nostril" "ectoplasm" "visualisation." Hopefully that will get you to the posts I am thinking of. There should be one there that lists, in detail, the process you need to go through to clean and sanitise a kettle tap and that process doesn't even involve dismantling.
PistolPatch - Busy week last week for me... Saw and reviewed some things last week and some more today.

search.php?keywords=+%221500%22+%22nostril%22+%22ectoplasm%22+%22visualisation%22&terms=any&author=PistolPatch&sc=1&sf=all&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Saw a bunch of posts and some debate between you and BobBrews over the topic. Your "nostril" test seems a good idea. Ball valves that can be broken down seems a great idea, but don't believe I've experienced any contamination issues, and my ball valves do not break down. My equipment passes your "nostril" test, and think if I used a siphon it would wind up with a similar overall cleaning time. Sorry PP, I think that provided proper cleaning process is followed, I'm with BobBrews and like the convenience of using my ball valves... :|

When Cleaning my Ball Valves:
I slowly open and close the valves several times, while using proper cleaning solutions... I've had the same thought that some liquid is trapped in the valve and that opening and closing the valve several times through the cleaning process is a smart idea.

Certainly could see a person that doesn't open and close the ball valves (multiple times) and was not careful with cleaning could wind up with the contamination you describe. But that doesn't describe my operation or my experience...
Last edited by Scott on 13 Jun 2016, 01:06, edited 1 time in total.


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Post by PistolPatch » 1 year ago

Search harder Scott :lol:! (I must say I did make one error above. I should have said search "visualise" instead of "visualisation".)

I'll come back to the actual hands-on later (probably not until the new site though) as I have already written, step by step, the process of cleaning a ball-valve, even without dismantling it, somewhere on this site. In fact, you are going to be horrified at a few of the simple racking solutions I've come up with in the last few months :shock:.

One thing I will mention now though is that my brain, crazy as it probably is, tries to consider every brewer's circumstances. It's really easy to think that every brewer is in the same situation or has the same access to the same equipment as you do. Kettle taps are a good example. Some set-ups (very few I've seen though) will result in any wort contained in dead spaces in the tap being sanitised during the boil. Most won't though.

And, that is the message to pass on. I think, but may be wrong on this, that even Bob found a bit of gunk on his kettle tap when he eventually pulled it apart. (I'll email him and ask him now before I forget.)

The point is (or will be on the new site) that a kettle tap will offer you zero time/labour advantages but a lot of risk.

Every single bit of equipment you add from kettle out can result in an immediate but, note usually, gradual, problem creeping in.

Make sense? :peace:
PP
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Post by Scott » 1 year ago

PP - I hear what you are saying, and my opinion "is subject to change without notice", or more likely subject to change after a bad experience. I have not yet had a bad experience with using ball valves (neither in my kettle, nor my fermenters), at least not with my system and cleaning process... But that includes fermenters with ball valves that don't have heat from the boil... (The fermenter taps do get soaked in cleaner, and sanitized).

My plastic Speidel fermenters with the spigots have been fantastic! Love them!!! Use these with a small section of tubing to put beer in the keg (after cold crash). My experience with these have been great (so far over the past two years).

BobBrews said he fount a bit of Teflon tape in there somewhere, not "gunk" (not contamination). At least that was what I saw...

PP - I have a great deal of respect for your thoughts and your considerable experience. Just with this particular issue I have had very positive positive results...with proper cleaning...using spigots. And feel it simplifies the operation... But like all opinions, it is "subject to change"...

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