Consensus on Temp to input when using a priming calculator?

Assumes carbonation of flat beer is done using a priming sugar.

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Consensus on Temp to input when using a priming calculator?

Post by 2trout » 4 years ago

Im ready to bottle my Pilsner, but Im always confused as to which temperature to use with the priming calculators.

I "Batch Prime" and bottle.

Primary fermentation at about 55*F 12.77*C.

Secondary/lagering 35F-45F 1.6C-7.2C. (been lagering for around 45 days at this point)

What if I were to bring the beer to room temp before primimg/bottling?

Just one of the thing I cant seen to remember, or find a consistent/clear answer to. :scratch:

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Post by HbgBill » 4 years ago

CheckThis Out It works well for me.
Last edited by HbgBill on 01 Apr 2013, 22:14, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by 2trout » 4 years ago

Thanks for the link, but the answer I am looking for is exactly what temp do I put here...
Beer Temperature
Upon completion of fermentation, a certain amount of CO2 remains in the beer. This amount of "residual CO2" depends upon the temperature of the fermentation.
My beer has spent time at 55f, then 40ishF and will likely be at 65F at bottling.

which do I use? :think:

trout
Last edited by 2trout on 01 Apr 2013, 22:19, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by HbgBill » 4 years ago

The temperature the beer is currently at. Bottling temperature.
Bill
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Post by 2trout » 4 years ago

THANKS!
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Post by PistolPatch » 4 years ago

[EDIT: Just saw Bill's post. We are pretty much in agreement except there is a bit of a problem in your secenario ;)]

This is a subject we have been through a few times before but the threads are hard to find. Before we go there though trout, there is a problem with the lagering. Lagering should be done with carbonated beer. What I'm saying is that you should prime first and lager afterwards. [EDIT: I might be wrong on this. See subsequent posts.]

Forgetting that though, the answer to your question is all about time and activity...

Firstly use a decent priming calculator such as is used in the BIABacus.

Secondly, as a general rule, you should input the highest temperature at which the wort was actively fermenting last. (There is some judgement required here on the time and activity issue but in most cases, it is not worth worrying about.) In other words, as Bill said, it will usually be the temp at which you are bottling.

Now we go back to your case though which is a one off. You've had the wort sitting for 45 days at about 4.5 C. Theoretically that is the temp you should use as that is the temp at which your beer has been saturated with CO2 at but...

The problem in your case is that the CO2 activity would have been negligible for ages. It probably isn't saturated with CO2 any longer. So, I'd probably be putting in the primary fermentation temp instead, say 10 C.

Don't get too hung up on it. Main thing is not to blow yourself up and inputing 10C will be fine.

;)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 01 Apr 2013, 23:01, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by mally » 4 years ago

Lagering should be done with carbonated beer
WOW, I never new that. So bottlers are meant to lager in the bottle? I have always bulk conditioned/lagered. :scratch:
Do you have any more info on that PP?
Last edited by mally on 02 Apr 2013, 02:04, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by PistolPatch » 4 years ago

This is interesting mally! I just had a quick look at a couple of books and they agree with you, especially on the bottling side of things. The funny thing is that the company I used to work for 25 years ago as well as some of the best lager brewers I know here all lager in the keg. (I just assumed that bottles would be the same).

I'll try and make a call on this today to see if I can get some more info on this. In the meantime, I'll add an edit to my last post here in case I am leading everyone astray :o.

:peace:
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Post by 2trout » 4 years ago

The two previous posts are exactly what I am getting at.

PP, while I typically don't get real concerned about things like this, I am coming from the recent experience of drinking a batch of an American Pale Ale that is still quite flat (months old now) because I cold crashed, and couldn't quite figure out what temp each calculator/recommendation were asking for. I think that the temp I entered was to low? and my beer came out flat. (I like some fizz in my beer. :yum: )

There is variability in regards to the temp to use in the carbonation calculators. Or at least there are assumptions that the brewer has base knowledge about terminology and the process that apparently that I don't have. I am seeking to make this temperature thing clear.

The root of the question is this, regardless of the beer Im brewing....When using a carbonation calculator, I DO need to enter a temperature. Which temperature?

A sampling of calculator inputs and recommendations with links are below.

http://www.tastybrew.com/calculators/priming.html
Beer Temperature
Upon completion of fermentation, a certain amount of CO2 remains in the beer. This amount of "residual CO2" depends upon the temperature of the fermentation.

http://hbd.org/cgi-bin/recipator/recipa ... ation.html
Beer temperature at bottling (°F)
http://www.brewblogger.net/?page=tools&section=sugar
Fermentation Temperature:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/
Current temperature of beer (F)


http://www.homebrewing.com/calculators/ ... tion=sugar
Fermentation Temperature:
http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f35/best-on ... or-293305/
And remember that "temperature" on the calculator means the highest temp your brew has reached during the fermentation process, not the temp you expect to carb at.
But my fermentation temp may not be the same as my lagering temp may not be the same as my dialectal rest may not be the same as my cold crash temp may not be the same as my as my bottling temp.... :headhit: :headhit: :headhit: :idiot: :pray: :sneak: :angry:



So maybe this is something like efficiency? Just what exactly do we mean when we talk about Temperature of the beer in regards to batch priming. :lol: (and yes I know that kegs and a CO2 system could solve this condrum but I want live carbonation)

trout
Last edited by 2trout on 02 Apr 2013, 10:43, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by HbgBill » 4 years ago

From BeerSmith. "Note that if you are bottling or naturally carbonating a keg, you need to wait for the beer to become fully carbonated before laagering. Otherwise laagering may slow or kill the yeast resulting in a poorly carbonated beer."
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Post by mally » 4 years ago

I can sympathise with you 2trout. However, the "laws" of brewing will rarely account for every possible situation that can exist. Due to this you are better off deciding what is best for yourself & using those laws as "guidelines" to get you nearer your target.
If your guideline is way off target, then adjust for your next batch.
I always pour sugar into my jug at a certain level & never/rarely weigh it now, If it's a lager add a bit more, a stout a bit less. I never bother with the temperatures either now. (YMMV).
Otherwise laagering may slow or kill the yeast resulting in a poorly carbonated beer."
.

This is another typical scenario. I am not trying to antagonise you here HbgBill, as I presume this is coming directly from BeerSmith, but I have just bulk primed & bottled a 100% munich lager that has been lagering (without carbonation) for 6 months. I had also added isinglass & polyclar as well.
Most people would say there will be no yeast to carbonate with after doing this, (or will be dead) but the bottles have carbonated fine (& no slower to boot).

This is the reason for my question to PP. If i had lagered this carbonated, what would be the difference?

P.S. Thinking about the BeerSmith quote - why would CO2 help stop yeast death/autolysis? I always understood that CO2 was toxic to yeast, and therefore, low/zero carbonation would be better?
Last edited by mally on 02 Apr 2013, 15:06, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by HbgBill » 4 years ago

You aren't antagonizing me Mally. I have a ton to learn. Yes, that quote was directly from one of BeerSmith's Blogs.

From everything I've read, autolysis is highly overrated and not an issue with homebrewers. The readings indicate it can be of concern with commercial brewers due to the sheer volume/depth/pressure (very tall tanks) on the yeast in the HUGE vats they use.

I also understand it's not the CO2 that kills yeast.. rather the alcohol level. I'd guess, only surmise, that the cold lagering, possibly ? combined with CO2, but I doubt it, can slow the yeast and result in poor carbonation.

Also, I too have crashed and fined and bottled. There always seems to be enough residual yeast left in suspension to naturally carbonate the beer. But, going back to the original post.. Short of my first and last Coopers kit, I have never had a carbonation issue using the calculator. There are a few calculators and they seem to be close, IMO

But, these are only guesses. Possibly I should not say ANYTHING, else I become guilty of perpetuating a myth(s). There is way too much of that going on by well intentioned people on other forums :/
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Post by PistolPatch » 4 years ago

Nice post Bill ;). Just caught it before posting the below...

[Managed to make that phone call re the lagering. The many time, gold medal lager brewer I called who also has micro-brewing experience first comment was, "Well, lagering in the fermentor would be fine but who can afford to tie up a fermentor???" Talked on it more and we can't see any major rights or wrongs on this but I wouldn't mind some more info. Probably worth another thread on that topic, "Lagering - before or after priming?"]

2trout, I'm hoping that the following will ease your mind a bit and make answering the temperature question much easier. You've been on this site long enough to know that we like coming up with simple, well thought-out solutions not simplistic answers.

You also know that there are many basic areas that there are still no answers to in brewing and that the only remedy then is to at least be informed. I'm going to really concentrate on this answer so let's see if we get lucky here on getting an answer, getting informed or me just getting drunk ;)...

The Temperature Question - Understanding the Science

I think there are two things that we need to understand here which then make everything else a lot easier.

The first thing we need to do is understand that cold wort can hold more CO2 in solution than warm wort.

The second thing to understand is that CO2 must be getting actively put into the beer. In other words, if there is no fermentation activity going on you will not be able to increase the CO2 levels.

Three Different Scenarios

Let's look at three different scenarios...

1. An ale (or lager) fermented at a constant temperature e.g. 18 C - Input 18C as that is the temperature that the wort has been at while consistently exposed to an active CO2 input (fermentation).

2. Lager fermented at a constant 9 C and then given a diacetyl rest at 14C and then bottled - Input temp would be 9 C. Why? Well, if you are doing your diacetyl rest correctly (btw please note that a diacetyl can be avoided by using other practices) then you will be gradually lowering the temp back to 9 C and there will be definite active input of CO2. (Ah!, I remember now, that is the reason I over-wrote a very old 'BIABacus' priming formula a member wrote some time ago that gave the diacetyl temperature priority. In other words, existing formula is fine.)

3. Lager fermented at a constant 9 C and then given a diacetyl rest at 14C and then lagered at 1C for say, two months before bottling. If you do use this method, from what I have read today, it is important that you get down to lagering temperatures while there is still about a third of fermentation left to go. If you leave it too late then Noonan says you must reduce your lagering time. (Not sure why and there are many other 'rules' in Noonan's book that give no reasoning.) My guess here is that Noonan is saying that lagering should be done whilst there is still fermentation activity going on. The lowering of temperature is simply slowing this last bit fo ther ferment right down. Interesting. But, what is the temperature answer?

One and two above are easy. What about three?

In my first post in this thread I mentioned time and that is where we are back to now. As an extreme example, if you left a beer for a year in a fermentor at 1 C (or 18C), at the end of that year, it will basically have no CO2 in it. Same as if you left a bottle of Coke in the fridge (or outside) for a year with the lid off. In other words, you might as well put in 37 C as your temperature as that is the temperature at which the maximum amount of priming sugar is required. (The scenario I am using says you'll need 3.2 grams per 500ml bottle).

At the other end of the time scale though, if you have carefully measured and timed all the lagering procedures outlined by Noonan, it probably works out that you reach final gravity just as the lagering process ends. Great! Then just use 1 C as your temperature as the wort will have had an active CO2 input at that temperature. (The scenario I am using says you'll need 1.5 grams per 500ml bottle).

As a matter of interest in this same scenario, if we put in 9 C we end up with 2.2 grams being required per 500 ml bottle.

Do we have an answer yet?

I think we certainly have answers on scenarios one and two and even scenario three but, but, but,...!!!

What about in 2 trout's case where he has had the beer sitting at about 4 C for 45 days?

Well, that temp is too high for lagering for that long (unless you want to read pages and pages of Noonan's stuff, trust me on this ;)). So I think that at 45 days at that temp, the beer will not have much CO2 in it at all. Your judgement on this though will be as good as mine. And that's where we are at on this - judgment.

All we know so far on 2trout's wort is that he probably shouldn't be using only 1.5 grams of sugar per 500 ml bottle to get 2.5 vols of CO2 but he also maybe should not be using 3.2 grams per bottle.

The Worst Case Scenarios

As a matter of interest and to put things into perspective, let's pretend that 2trout was lagering at 1C not 4C. If 2trout only uses 1.5 grams per 500ml bottle and his wort had no CO2 in it, he would end up with a beer with about 1.5 vols of CO2. A bit flat for sure.

If 2trout uses 3.2 grams per 500ml bottle and his wort actually was full of CO2 at 1 C, he would end up with a beer with about 3.5 vols of CO2. A bit too lively but he's not going to kill himself :).

If he puts in 2.2 grams (the value required at 9C) he'll end up with somewhere between 2.0 and 2.9 vols of CO2.

So, if you are not sure, then go for the primary fermentation temperature.

My Personal View

The priming formula we are using in the BIABacus is the most advanced available. This does not mean it should be treated as a god though. Very few brewing formulas are god-like and this is the point that mally was making above and that I also like rambling on about...

Use numbers to get you into the ball-park. (The BIABacus numbers are the best you'll get as they are very carefully written and studied, so do use them). But, what if they don't work?

Well, the whole aim of the BIABacus and this site is to get brewers asking the right questions. For example, if we had scenario 1 here on the priming and the beer tasted over or under-carbonated then there is a process that we can work through. The first part of that process is for the brewer to be willing to distrust their own measurements. The second part is for the brewer to be willing to repeat what they think they did on the next brew/s. The third part is to then be prepared to adjust the formulas - knowingly.

Slow and steady wins the race on this stuff.

:peace:
PP
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Post by mally » 4 years ago

That's great PP, I really enjoyed reading that. I hope it helps 2trout too.
However, you have just hit me with another bombshell;
My guess here is that Noonan is saying that lagering should be done whilst there is still fermentation activity going on
.

I didn't know that either!

If your assumptions are true; how can anybody that bottles their beer do true (Noonan) lagering?
I would have to buy a pressure keg for lagering & then bottle afterwards. :shoot:

BTW - I currently just rack to secondary after fermentation activity has practically stopped for lagering.
MOD's - if this is too distracting for the OP, can we have it moved to a new thread?
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Post by 2trout » 4 years ago

Just woke up here in the states.

Excellent replies guys. I do learn a lot every time I really take the time to read all of the answers provided.

I don't have a fridge to do cold crashing/lagering so I use my garage for lagering/cold crashing (next time Ill brew my pilsner in November so my lagering temps will be colder and more consistent) Spring is upon us here in Colorado, and Ive got to bottle soon.

Thanks All, and Ill let you know how it all goes.

trout
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Post by Nuff » 4 years ago

mally wrote:MOD's - if this is too distracting for the OP, can we have it moved to a new thread?
If you would like to talk more on the Noonan aspects, I would advise starting a new thread in BIABrewer Old Hands as the lagering prior to carbonating conditions described by Noonan are far more intricate than has been hinted at in this thread.

Whilst you don't need a pressure vessel to do Noonan lagering, you will need to do a lot of study and take a lot of measurements. With this in mind, if anyone does start a new thread on this subject, they should be prepared to spend quite a few hours studying Noonan and then writing the thread for it if they would like it to end up being of value to the community. In other words, this is another topic where we have to hope that one individual will take some time to give us all a quality answer or at least, a summary of existing information.
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Post by PistolPatch » 4 years ago

2trout wrote:PP, while I typically don't get real concerned about things like this, I am coming from the recent experience of drinking a batch of an American Pale Ale that is still quite flat (months old now) because I cold crashed, and couldn't quite figure out what temp each calculator/recommendation were asking for. I think that the temp I entered was to low? and my beer came out flat. (I like some fizz in my beer. :yum: )
I'm going to be pretty busy for the rest of the week at least so won't be able to add anything more here for a while. Here's one last thing though that hit me at about 4am this morning...

These formulas could be over-estimating how much CO2 is trapped in the beer. It wouldn't be the first time we have come across commonly used beer formulas that are written incorrectly or based on no real life tests. I have certainly never read anywhere else about the time factor we have discussed here and the 'active' input of CO2. Surely these things should rate a mention when we are talking about formulas that are meant to calculate the CO2 trapped in solution?

Anyway, I rarely bottle but when I do need a bottle I use 2 carbonation 'lollies' per 740 ml. This is 7 grams of glucose. These seem to work out nicely regardless of what I am bottling - usually pale ales or lagers.

However, if I use the priming formulas such as used in the BIABAcus, if I put in 2.5 Vols of CO2 and a fermentation temperature of 37 C (the temp that causes the formula to give the highest result) I still only get told to use 4.7 grams of corn sugar which is the equivalent of only 4 grams of glucose. (If I input ale and lager fermnentation temps, the result just goes lower.)

So, the more I look into this, the more suspicious I am of just what science these formulas are based on.

It'd be interesting to see what rates other people prime their beers at :think:.

Hope there'll be something here for me to read when I return.

:peace:
PP
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Post by 2trout » 4 years ago

Thanks PP,

I generally plug data in two carbonation calculators (or three,) and they pretty much agree.

In this case, Ill be assuming that there is little CO2 in the beer as I believe that fermentation was quite over when I put it in the garage, and it is certainly well over now as my "lagering" area is not at lager temps any longer. Ill be using my initial fermentation temp and maybe a few degress higher.

trout
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Post by 2trout » 4 years ago

I bottled my pilsner on April 9th, and used the Biabacus priming calculator. I had entered my fermentation temps and the highest temp reached was about 57*F. So I followed the amounts indicated by the Biabacus for 2.5 vols of CO2. Ill check a bottle in about another 2 weeks and see where Im at.

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Post by PistolPatch » 4 years ago

PistolPatch wrote:...I rarely bottle but when I do need a bottle I use 2 carbonation 'lollies' per 740 ml. This is 7 grams of glucose. These seem to work out nicely regardless of what I am bottling - usually pale ales or lagers.

However, if I use the priming formulas such as used in the BIABAcus, if I put in 2.5 Vols of CO2 and a fermentation temperature of 37 C (the temp that causes the formula to give the highest result) I still only get told to use 4.7 grams of corn sugar which is the equivalent of only 4 grams of glucose...

So, the more I look into this, the more suspicious I am of just what science these formulas are based on.
Since posting the above, I have had two more bottles (lagers) that I had used two carbonation drops in. Carbonation result? Perfect!

If the formulas we are currently using in the BIABAcus are correct, my beers should have been tremendously over-carbonatred, certainly not, 'just right'. Looking forward to hearing whether your beers turn out frothy, just right or flat.

If they turn out flat then that is at least two of us the think there is a problem ;),

PP
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Post by Homemade » 4 years ago

Great thread this i enjoyed reading it but pls Don't keep us in suspense....what was the result 2trout?


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Post by rockbotton » 4 years ago

For my brews, Biabacus results in undercarbonation. I have used what was recommended but today decided I would start experimenting.
I also wanted to know why the default in Biabacus is for Corn sugar. Is that what most folks use who bottle?
I have only used table sugar when I bottle.
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Post by BobBrews » 4 years ago

rockbottom,

The most common refined sugar used in homebrewing is corn sugar, also referred to as Brewing Sugar. Corn sugar tends to be more fermentable and leave less aftertaste than cane or beet sugar. A good rule of thumb is that the amount of corn sugar you can use without effecting the flavor of the beer is 10-15% of the total gravity of the beer. Corn sugar will contribute approximately 1.0085 degrees of gravity per pound per 5 gallons of beer being made. As an example, if you are making a porter with an original gravity (gravity pre-fermentation) of 1.060, and wish to “beef it up” some, then you could add up to 1 lb. (1/2 kg) of corn sugar. 1.060 x 15% = 1.009 which is about one pound.


Here's how to make and add priming solutions for a 5 gallon or 19 liter generic beer:

1. Boil 3/4 cup of corn sugar (4 oz by weight), or 2/3 cup of white sugar, or 1 and 1/4 cup dry malt extract in 2 cups of water and let it cool. Add the solution to the bottling bucket or keg?

For what its worth, here is a link to a priming calculator. http://www.northernbrewer.com/priming-sugar-calculator/

I book mark this for handy conversions http://www.worldwidemetric.com/measurements.html
Last edited by BobBrews on 12 Aug 2013, 20:22, edited 2 times in total.
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2trout
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Post by 2trout » 4 years ago

Guess I dropped the ball a bit....

So we have drank all the pilsner. If I remember correctly, I think that it was a bit over carbonated.

I bottled a porter on June 3 using BIABACUS carb calculator, and opened one up on Friday (Aug 9) It was a tasty beer.....when it stopped gushing. :argh:

I haven't reviewed my BIABACUS file on this porter yet (and I don't think Ill be able to for a while), and one beer is not necessarily the same as an entire batch. But maybe the BIABACUS Carb Calculator is a bit aggressive?

Trout
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Post by rockbotton » 4 years ago

Bob
How much after taste would you get from 4 or 5 ounces. If I was using it to bump up gravity I would use corn sugar but it hardly seems worth it for priming.
I have used numerous priming calculators for bulk priming when I bottle. They all tend to give different amounts of priming sugar to add even when all the parameters are exactly the same.
I guess I am in the minority since I still bottle. :sad:
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