BIABacus Pre-Release - Your First Impressions

Where new site members and/or new brewers can get to find their way to great info and ask any questions they like.
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PistolPatch
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Post by PistolPatch » 1 year ago

Couldn't help myself. Whilst writing the postscript above, I ended up checking out one of the Briess recipes - the American-Style Marzen one. I have no idea what program they used to work out colour or IBU's but I'm guessing BeerSmith as the closest I can get to their colour and IBU numbers is to use pre-boil volumes. And am pretty sure they are not using the Tinseth formula.

Despite this being what we call a low integrity recipe (as the numbers are not fully described) this does not matter for the purposes of our investigation into the accuracy of the BIABacus "sugar" estimates.

In the file below, you'll see we need 4848 grams using the Briess specs.
BIABacus PR1.3T - Briess Test - American-Style Marzen.xls
If you now go and blank out Section Y, you'll see we now need 4821 grams.

See how insignificant that difference is dom?

...

My memory is returning a bit now and there is no way that we would use that default unless we had researched it thoroughly over the years so ignore my previous doubts.

;)
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 17 Dec 2015, 18:36, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by dom » 1 year ago

Cool - thanks once again for your help in explaining :-D
Cheers


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Post by gpupu » 1 year ago

Hi again!

As I said some post before, I was trying to brew a HefeWeizen, but everything goes wronghe o.

Yesterday, I tried the same recipe, and things goes better. However I lost a lot of wort on my way, so I finished with only 7.5 L into fermentor. :dunno:

On the other hand, I am introducing all my notes into BIABacus today, and I noticed something that I would like to ask you.

If my expected OG is 1048 and I am actually getting same gravity, why BIABACUS said that my efficience is 68.9% instead the estimated 85%. I am playing with values, and I see that Volume into fermentor influence on efficience.

As far as I know, efficience shows the percentage of sugars extracted for the grains, that is the reason why I am asking here.

Here is my file, if you would like to check
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Post by Mad_Scientist » 1 year ago

The BIABacus says 10.5L VAW not 9L, that's 15% lower in volume.

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Post by Mad_Scientist » 1 year ago

I read a couple weeks back about wheat beers can be a little tricky. This is a link which might give some clues. I searched on 'wheat'.

http://biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=2 ... eat#p51397

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Post by gpupu » 1 year ago

Thanks for your answer Mad, I will try better next time in order to do not lose all that quantity of wort.

Cheers


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Post by PistolPatch » 1 year ago

gpupu wrote:I noticed something that I would like to ask you.

If my expected OG is 1048 and I am actually getting same gravity, why BIABACUS said that my efficiency is 68.9% instead the estimated 85%. I am playing with values, and I see that Volume into fermentor influence on efficiency.
I think this post here will answer this bit of your question gpupu. :peace:
Last edited by PistolPatch on 04 Jan 2016, 16:06, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Lumpy5oh » 1 year ago

Gpupu.
I ran into the exact same thing on my last brew. My gravity reading were exactly as predicted but my VIF was almost a gallon short. My thinking and hopefully correctly understanding of the differences in the efficiency percentage is that if we had the correct estimated volumes our gravity readings would have been lower and therefore the same efficiency.
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Post by Fun4stuff » 1 year ago

Is there a biabacus where I can type in imperial values without having to first convert to metric (I.e. Type in gallons, lbs, inches, etc).

Is there a biabacus where I can type in exact ingredients in pounds rather than percentages?


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Post by PistolPatch » 1 year ago

Not available F4s. We had this in one of the earliest BIABaci but it required macros and any macro added would only work for about 50% of users, operating systems etc hence the decision to do a new BIABacus that had zero macros.

On the plus side, metric users have to go through the same rigmarole when they are copying US recipes so we are all in the same boat.

You can type in, for grain, in the Grams/Ratios column things like 1.2 if you are using 1.2 pounds of something. As long as you do the same for all the grains this will keep the right ratios. Hope that makes sense?

:peace:
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Post by Fun4stuff » 1 year ago

PistolPatch wrote:Not available F4s. We had this in one of the earliest BIABaci but it required macros and any macro added would only work for about 50% of users, operating systems etc hence the decision to do a new BIABacus that had zero macros.

On the plus side, metric users have to go through the same rigmarole when they are copying US recipes so we are all in the same boat.

You can type in, for grain, in the Grams/Ratios column things like 1.2 if you are using 1.2 pounds of something. As long as you do the same for all the grains this will keep the right ratios. Hope that makes sense?

:peace:
Makes sense. Thanks for the help!
Last edited by Fun4stuff on 19 Jan 2016, 21:27, edited 2 times in total.


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Post by Oldgit » 1 year ago

Hello will this work with a iPad please


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Post by Oldgit » 1 year ago

:sneak: Anyone please

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Post by Mad_Scientist » 1 year ago

For BIABacus? , it's recommended to use MS Excel or Libre Office.


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Post by Oldgit » 1 year ago

:thumbs: Thanks


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Post by gpupu » 1 year ago

Hi friends!

Here am I again planning my next batch with Biabacus. I found some questions I would like to contrast with you:

How dilution affects to hop bill section D

As I live in a flat, I am trying to play with dilution factors on section W, in order to retrieve some more liters of beer after a long day of homebrewing :D

After touching these values I found that for an original recipe of near to 21 liters with a dry hopping addition requiring 56,7 grams. BIABacus asks me for an addition of 69,7 grams for a desired volume of 16 L. Both additions with same alphaacids percentage.

As it is Dry Hopping into the fermentor, after top water has been added, I do not understand a higher addition for less quantity at this point. Is it correct?

Also I have "cheated" Biabacus with AA on lasts hop additions, as I am looking for flavour not bitternes. Hope this technique is ok.

Other additions

Original recipe asks for some orange zest and coriander additions. After introduce is on the tool I found same issue as with hops. I.e for 28 grams it asks for 42 grams in WYWU column. How could it be such higher?

I attach file I am working on

Thanks for your help guys!
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Last edited by gpupu on 08 Aug 2016, 01:02, edited 2 times in total.


PistolPatch
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Post by PistolPatch » 1 year ago

Hi there gpupu :salute:,

I've been lazy on answering questions the last few weeks so let me have a crack at this for you. (There are some hard concepts below so don't worry if it doesn't sink in straight away).

The first problem you have is that it's very hard to tell in most recipes you stumble across, what they actually mean when they give you a volume. For example, a brewer might say, I made 20.82 litres of beer but you have no idea if they produced 20.82 litres into bottles, 20.82 litres of wort into their fermenter, 20.82 litres in their kettle after chilling or even 20.82 litres at the end of the boil. It's a big problem when you are trying to copy a recipe.

The volume figure you really want to know, is the volume they had at the end of the boil after they had cooled it ("Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW). Let's say, that the brewer you were copying from did actually have 20.82 L of ambient wort. From Section K in your file, we can see that you are producing 14.17 L of ambient wort. As your question so rightly says, "Why am I needing more ingredients?"

Here's what is happening...

First, I am going to remove all your numbers in Section W. (see the file I have attached below.) You will notice the following occurs...

1. VAW changes from 14.17 L to 18.67 L. (Original recipe is 20.82 L)
2. Grain Bill needed drops from 4926 to 4178 grams (Original recipe is 5482 grams)
3. Hop Bill drops from 184.3 grams to 152.4 grams (Original recipe is 169.9 grams)

Notice now how things are now balancing? For example, 18.67 / 20.82 X 169.9 = 152.4

Forget about the rind - that is an error in Section F of BIABacus PR1.3T - The formula is back the front. For example, on your orange zest, it is going 20.82 / 18.67 * 28 instead of 18.67 / 20.82 * 28 so proper amount to add would be 25.1 grams.

Okay, that makes sense so why are my additions in Section W Making Such a Difference?

There are two numbers in Section W that are resulting in the "apparent" discrepancy. They are the "Water Added During the Boil" and "Water Added to Fermenter".

Any dilution water you add is water that can't be used to wash the grain. This means you can't get the grain as clean. This results in a vicious cycle where you have to add more grain to get the amount of sugar you need from it for your brew. In your original file, you needed 4926 grams of grain versus 4178 grams of grain. If you exaggerate this concept into something easier to get your head around, imagine...

...if you put a tea bag in a mug and only filled the mug up a quarter, let it soak, pulled it and then topped up the mug. You are going to get weak tea. If you insist on using that method, to get the right strength tea, you might have to use two tea bags.

Okay, I get that but there must be something else?

Diluting in the fermenter, not only has the above effect, it also has one more. At the end of the boil, you end up with a much higher percentage of debris/trub than if you were not diluting in the fermenter. This higher percentage of trub means that the hop oils have more "crap" to stick to instead of going into your beer so, like the grain, you need to use more hops to compensate for this.
Putting It All Together
Any time you make a full volume variation in Section W, it will always cost you in either extra equipment, work, mess, quality and/or ingredients.

Have a read of this article to work out how to get the right balance from the kettle size you have.

*The concepts I've explained above can take a while to get your head around so don't be worried if it doesn't sink in after just one read of the above and the article. Let us know though if some bits are still confusing once you've had a ponder over the above with a beer.

;),
PP
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 09 Aug 2016, 15:01, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by gpupu » 1 year ago

Thank you very much PP, such a good and clear post!

I think now I really understand my questions, exammple about the tea bag was really clear.

About the other post I already have read it when so I posted my BIABacus before as result, for that reason I think I will go with these dilution settings (I will take another look anyway). Actually I got enough grain, so in that sense is not a problem, and I am more worried about the hops (which are more expensive) whith these premises and my small stove :nup: pot I adjusted these values.

I will post here my excel once I have got a final version. This weekend its time to brew! :D


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Post by JayP » 1 year ago

Anyone having problems with the latest version of LibreOffice (Fresh v5.2.0)

Ive got a Mac running OSX 10.11.6 (El Capitan) and it crashes everytime I try to open Biabacus (I've tried various files with the same result)

I have uninstalled and am trying an older version (5.1.5 Still) to see if that makes any difference


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Post by Pat » 1 year ago

Thanks for letting us know Jay. I just opened in the PC version 5.1.4.2 which is up to date.

I've been working full time on the new site for a few months now (labour of love) and intend to re-write the BIABacus into LibreOffice as I am hoping that will avoid all cross-platform problems.

I don't have a Mac here atm but 'youmustbemellow' does and will be here in the next couple of days so we will have a look. In the meantime, hopefully, others can confirm your problem.
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Post by JayP » 1 year ago

Thanks. It is working on the older version 5.1.5


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Post by popmedium » 1 year ago

Just want to say, you guys (site admins) are incredible. Such selves work both on the forum and on BIABacus. The later has changed the way I brew and I'm so thankful to have it in my brewing arsenal. My dream: one get super reach and pay you all heaps of money and develop BIABacus web apps/native apps/mobile apps whatever.

Stay awesome.


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Post by Pat » 1 year ago

[Preface: A rushed post so apologies for any spellng errors etc.]

Lovely post thanks popmedium :thumbs:

I'm embarrassed about the current layout and structure of the site (info is way too hard to find and the site looks primitive) but am really proud of the culture here.

We are on a slippery but fun slope atm. Slippery because I have bitten the bullet and committed to stopping working until the new site works or I run out of money. I won't go into details here but I have also committed to paying out about $800 per week until the new site launches. This is where it gets slippery as this site runs at a loss so every week I lose $800 and get a lot more worried. Posts like yours and existing members helping each other out with their questions encourage me to continue on this crazy path so...

:thumbs: :clap: :salute:

If I were you, here are some questions I would probably ask of me...

Q. Are you mad?
A. I think so. My madness/passion is trying to make areas I have found maddening/confusing/frustrating easier for others.

Q. What if it sends you broke?
A. Well, maybe one of the members here will employ me and I'll devote my thinking to that if it's interesting?

Q. What will the new site do?
A. Subconsciously or consciously, the new site has been worked on for well before BIABrewer.info was even established. The new site aims to put all those thoughts/desires together; in a couple of clicks you will be able to find quality info or community where your question will be answered immediately or very soon.

Q. Why wasn't the new site developed earlier?
A. There are a myriad of answers here. To simplify them, we could break them down into three parts although it is really a combination; technology, people and money. Technology-wise, most of the things I dreamed of have only recently become possible and even many of those things I am unsure of. Now, however, nearly all the things I imagined are now possible. Unfortunately, in the past, I spent several hundreds of hours with some people who told me things were possible at that time but they were not (Kostas and I acted on that advice and spent over a thousand hours acting on that advice to no avail). On the money side, while an issue, it has never been a major issue until now. Previously I have been able to work enough to keep things afloat and think/write/learn/improve things here. Now it is an issue as I have no income and am actively paying out each week - a lot!

Q. You didn't say much about "people" above?
A. Glad you asked - my favourite bit :thumbs:. A lot of things have come together to form a"perfect storm." A long overdue debt was paid to me so I can choose to fund/float the new site for another few months before going broke. I also have another party willing to work at half-rate to get the new site up and going. More importantly, I know that this site has many members who have the right attitude and who will found the new site. Whether they be members who constantly answer questions well or newer members who ask questions well.

The older members who keep contributing quality really deserve special thanks as they have put up with my promises of a new site for years! I hope that they realise what a difference they make to newer members and myself. And I hope they know that they know that I am spending everything I have on this and that every minute they spend probably saves me five.

See preface ;),
Pat
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Post by Wyoracer » 1 year ago

Same here, quite frustrating as I have to work on recipes on my work computer (Excel) then print out the recipe since I can't open it up at home. Hopefully it will be fixed soon in LibreOffice
Pat wrote:Thanks for letting us know Jay. I just opened in the PC version 5.1.4.2 which is up to date.

I've been working full time on the new site for a few months now (labour of love) and intend to re-write the BIABacus into LibreOffice as I am hoping that will avoid all cross-platform problems.

I don't have a Mac here atm but 'youmustbemellow' does and will be here in the next couple of days so we will have a look. In the meantime, hopefully, others can confirm your problem.
Last edited by Wyoracer on 27 Oct 2016, 01:56, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Mad_Scientist » 1 year ago

Just a thought - I work on BIABacus at work and save it to the cloud using Dropbox and will open it with WPS Office app at home, if needed. But I work off the printout during brewday.

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