Does this recipe have integrity? Can I copy it?

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Post by bworek1 » 3 years ago

Rick wrote:
bworek1 wrote: First off thank you. I adjust the information in section Y like you stated. Also, you stated that my grain totals were less than the original recipe. I am showing the opposite in section D.
I think you mean Sec. C? This is because the original batch size is 5G. Yours is 6.12G, scaling up needs more ingredients.

- Delete tinseth information in Sec. D. Type in 18.93L in Sec. D's I'm copying recipe from external source in its place.
- Type in 16.21L in Sec B's Desired VIF. (This brings EOBV-A to 5G "batch size")
- Erase Sec. Y information.
- override kettle efficiency (set it to 75% in sec. X)

Now you'll see that all of the hop information is balanced from one side to the next although IBU's go a bit higher than you had them. Trivial amount, IMO.

You will also see that the grain bill matches the original recipe now that the volumes are the same. Whether intentional or not, you scaled the recipe to produce more beer, correctly.
I got ya! I see what you are saying, nice explanation and thanks again.
Last edited by bworek1 on 12 Feb 2014, 01:31, edited 2 times in total.


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Post by PistolPatch » 3 years ago

bworke1: Congratulations on having a crack at the BIABacus. I'll write to you again in the "How to convert recipes thread..." Here though, let's look more at...
Rick wrote:With all of that said, I don't really see a recipe with great integrity here...
The original recipe is definitely a low integrity one. Here are some reasons why...

Poor Terminology in the Report

Batch Size: It does not say whether this means 'Volume into Fermentor' or 'Volume into Fermentor' plus Kettle to Fermentor Loss'. Rick for good reason has assumed it means the latter.

Efficiency: Does not say whether it is a kettle or fermentor efficiency number. Whenever you see 75%, it is a good sign that the original user probably is unsure themselves.

IBU's: The formula used to calculate this has not been defined.

Colour: 2 SRM's makes me really wonder about BrewToad's colour calculation

So, the above makes things very vague.

Generally

If you look at this page (mentioned in the original recipe), you'll see the IBU's listed as 18 IBU's. Why is this clone coming up at over 30 IBU's?

No idea why Liberty hops are being used as aroma hops and I don't think there is enough Cascade but, bear in mind, I have never tasted the beer.

Summary

Don't get too worried by all this bworke1. The great thing about all-grain is that you usually get a great beer out of it no matter what. That's the first lesson - you can disrespect numbers a fair bit.

The second lesson is that most brewers are not given the tools (software) or education to understand how to give a proper recipe report. So, don't trust other people's numbers except here!

The third lesson is that most recipes on the net are published by enthusiastic first-timers or brewers with not too much experience. Often they are publishing the recipe and have never even brewed it. That recipe you are copying has no comments but even if it did, I'd be worried given some of the above.

I'll write some other stuff in the other thread now regarding your file.

;)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 12 Feb 2014, 19:03, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by bworek1 » 3 years ago

PistolPatch wrote:bworke1: Congratulations on having a crack at the BIABacus. I'll write to you again in the "How to convert recipes thread..." Here though, let's look more at...
Rick wrote:With all of that said, I don't really see a recipe with great integrity here...
The original recipe is definitely a low integrity one. Here are some reasons why...

Poor Terminology in the Report

Batch Size: It does not say whether this means 'Volume into Fermentor' or 'Volume into Fermentor' plus Kettle to Fermentor Loss'. Rick for good reason has assumed it means the latter.

Efficiency: Does not say whether it is a kettle or fermentor efficiency number. Whenever you see 75%, it is a good sign that the original user probably is unsure themselves.

IBU's: The formula used to calculate this has not been defined.

Colour: 2 SRM's makes me really wonder about BrewToad's colour calculation

So, the above makes things very vague.

Generally

If you look at this page (mentioned in the original recipe), you'll see the IBU's listed as 18 IBU's. Why is this clone coming up at over 30 IBU's?

No idea why Liberty hops are being used as aroma hops and I don't think there is enough Cascade but, bear in mind, I have never tasted the beer.

Summary

Don't get too worried by all this bworke1. The great thing about all-grain is that you usually get a great beer out of it no matter what. That's the first lesson - you can disrespect numbers a fair bit.

The second lesson is that most brewers are not given the tools (software) or education to understand how to give a proper recipe report. So, don't trust other people's numbers except here!

The third lesson is that most recipes on the net are published by enthusiastic first-timers or brewers with not too much experience. Often they are publishing the recipe and have never even brewed it. That recipe you are copying has no comments but even if it did, I'd be worried given some of the above.

I'll write some other stuff in the other thread now regarding your file.

;)
PP
Thank you for all of your input, it has helped a lot.

I guess I was using that recipe as a starting point. I looked at the website for Goose Island 312 and found that they used the First Gold hop so figured I would add it to the brew but try to keep the IBU around 21.

Do you think I should try and find another recipe?
Last edited by bworek1 on 12 Feb 2014, 23:05, edited 2 times in total.


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Post by PistolPatch » 3 years ago

I totally missed that line on the website that had the hops listed. Nice!!!

In a case like this, what I do is have a quick google for any other recipes out there to see if there is any common theme. I just did this and your recipe looks much more sensible than the others I have seen. So, I reckon go for it. I think your changes are sensible. Very hard for me to comment as I don't know the beer at all but the amount of cascade hops at flame-out seems very small?
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Post by bworek1 » 3 years ago

Thank you again Pistol!!


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Post by SeanGodd » 3 years ago

Hey I'm noob and just trying to put together a recipe I got some another forum. This will be my first BIAB. I just want to know if this looks good or no?

EDIT: Actually I think I may brew to APA that comes with the BIABacus. But i may have to change the hops a little. I like me some Hoppyness :drink:

Thank in Advance
GBFPWLBB.xls
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Last edited by SeanGodd on 28 Feb 2014, 02:33, edited 2 times in total.
Cheers!!

the Kegs: Kerry's Bock Baby!, Godd's E-Brown, Godd's ESB, Bitter Mister Mom,
In the Carboy: For the love of dunkel,
Up Next: Kerry's Bock Baby!(V1.1)
87 Gals beer - Running Total


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Post by SeanGodd » 3 years ago

Well since my last post didn't get any help I figured I will post the recipe without it being in BIABacus.

O.G. 1.048, F.G. 1.010, ABV = 5%
Recipe
45% Canadian 2 row
44% German Pils
5% Carahelles (carafoam is fine as well)
5% Dexterose
1% Black malt (for little colour)

Mashed low (~66°C) for 60 min for a dry and crispy ale.
90 min boil

Hops
Tettnanger at 60 min up to 20 IBUs
Small Tettnanger addition at flameout (1/2 oz for 5 gal batch)

Fermented with US-05 at 18°C for clean flavour, becomes better with some lagering (~2 weeks or so).
Cheers!!

the Kegs: Kerry's Bock Baby!, Godd's E-Brown, Godd's ESB, Bitter Mister Mom,
In the Carboy: For the love of dunkel,
Up Next: Kerry's Bock Baby!(V1.1)
87 Gals beer - Running Total

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Post by Rick » 3 years ago

Just throwing this out there, but a recipe you are copying is kinda useless to us without providing us a link to check your file against. This is likely why you did not get a response.


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Post by SeanGodd » 3 years ago

Rick wrote:Just throwing this out there, but a recipe you are copying is kinda useless to us without providing us a link to check your file against. This is likely why you did not get a response.
Okay Thx for the help. I am not really sure of the process here.

I got this recipe from another forum. I don't have any other info then what I will post below. Just wanted to see if I've done this correctly. I have not yet BIAB'd. But plan to in the summer. Just want to get a couple recipes down so I don't have to research them after each brew. First I plan to do the APA mentioned with the BIAB second I will do this. I will re-link the Spreadsheet as well.

O.G. 1.048, F.G. 1.010, ABV = 5%
Recipe
45% Canadian 2 row
44% German Pils
5% Carahelles (carafoam is fine as well)
5% Dexterose
1% Black malt (for little colour)

Mashed low (~66°C) for 60 min for a dry and crispy ale.
90 min boil

Hops
Tettnanger at 60 min up to 20 IBUs
Small Tettnanger addition at flameout (1/2 oz for 5 gal batch)

Fermented with US-05 at 18°C for clean flavour, becomes better with some lagering (~2 weeks or so).
GBFPWLBB.xls
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Last edited by SeanGodd on 01 Mar 2014, 03:04, edited 2 times in total.
Cheers!!

the Kegs: Kerry's Bock Baby!, Godd's E-Brown, Godd's ESB, Bitter Mister Mom,
In the Carboy: For the love of dunkel,
Up Next: Kerry's Bock Baby!(V1.1)
87 Gals beer - Running Total

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Post by Rick » 3 years ago

SeanGodd wrote:
Rick wrote:Just throwing this out there, but a recipe you are copying is kinda useless to us without providing us a link to check your file against. This is likely why you did not get a response.
Okay Thx for the help. I am not really sure of the process here.

I got this recipe from another forum. I don't have any other info then what I will post below. Just wanted to see if I've done this correctly. I have not yet BIAB'd. But plan to in the summer. Just want to get a couple recipes down so I don't have to research them after each brew. First I plan to do the APA mentioned with the BIAB second I will do this. I will re-link the Spreadsheet as well.

O.G. 1.048, F.G. 1.010, ABV = 5%
Recipe
45% Canadian 2 row
44% German Pils
5% Carahelles (carafoam is fine as well)
5% Dexterose
1% Black malt (for little colour)

Mashed low (~66°C) for 60 min for a dry and crispy ale.
90 min boil

Hops
Tettnanger at 60 min up to 20 IBUs
Small Tettnanger addition at flameout (1/2 oz for 5 gal batch)

Fermented with US-05 at 18°C for clean flavour, becomes better with some lagering (~2 weeks or so).
GBFPWLBB.xls

There is a serious lack of information here. No hop AA%, no IBU specificity (rager, garetz, tinseth?). No volumes either, yet you seem to have made a guess of 23L in Sec. D? I'm not sure why you used that field, if there is no volume information to be found.

I guess it helps that they provided percentages for grains, at least .. considering there are no volumes.

I could be typing all day on how this recipe lacks integrity, but they at least give enough to where you can make it your own? It'll make beer, but you're really taking a chance with this one. I see that you moved to the Amarillo APA, and this is wise for now. Maybe in a few brews you will be better equipped to mess around with this recipe, if you're still interested of course.

Continuing on with your file, I would up the mash to 90 minutes. Definitely stay with the 90min boil here, since you're using pils malt.

Mashing at that temp, and getting to 5%abv seems reasonable for US-05. That's about 80% attenuation, which sounds about right to me. Listed Fermentation temp is within range. I'm not sure how you can lager with US-05, but maybe somebody more experienced can chime in on that. Cripes, I didn't have confidence in this recipe already ... something like this really throws up some red flags. Maybe they want you to pitch lager yeast after the US05 is done? No idea.

Dextrose percentage is trivial enough to where you don't have to worry about using section Y. (100%FGDB and O%MC is the typical override for dextrose). It won't make much difference only using 5% though.
Last edited by Rick on 01 Mar 2014, 03:46, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Yeasty » 3 years ago

SeanGodd wrote:Hey I'm noob and just trying to put together a recipe I got some another forum. This will be my first BIAB. I just want to know if this looks good or no?

EDIT: Actually I think I may brew to APA that comes with the BIABacus. But i may have to change the hops a little. I like me some Hoppyness :drink:

Thank in Advance
Hi Sean,
Sorry no one got onto your question straight away but please remember we are all "Volunteers" and with world time differences and the time these questions sometimes take to answer it can be a while before you get a reply. There is no shame in giving your own post a bump either if you feel that you have been passed by. Be assured though that the mods do keep an eye on things and they do send PM's to key people making them aware that a question has gone unanswered.

As to your recipe I think Rick is right that you will have to give more supporting information, if you have copied the recipe from another forum provide a link so that we can see the original. The main thing I noticed is that you say you are a noob and this is your first Biab. For that reason alone I would definitely go with a tried and tested recipes until you have the process under control. If you are looking for a particular style to brew just ask on the forum and someone will help out with a proven recipe.

:luck:

Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 01 Mar 2014, 05:05, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by SeanGodd » 3 years ago

Okay so it seems that I have gotten my answer on this one. I should prob wait a bit until I can make it my own. I do have brewing experience but I am an extract brewer atm. As for a link to where I got the recipe I will post it bellow. The reason I wanted to brew this is because it is a good recipe for the masses. Not really something I would enjoy alone but something I can break out when "people who like bad beer" LOL come over.

Could anyone recommend something in a similar style

Link for recipe - http://www.canadianhomebrewers.com/view ... =26&t=2616
Cheers!!

the Kegs: Kerry's Bock Baby!, Godd's E-Brown, Godd's ESB, Bitter Mister Mom,
In the Carboy: For the love of dunkel,
Up Next: Kerry's Bock Baby!(V1.1)
87 Gals beer - Running Total


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Post by PistolPatch » 3 years ago

Good Beer for People Who Like Bad Beer :lol: :lol: :lol:

Hi there Sean,

Mainly good news for you here. While the original recipe is of low integrity (poor quality information to work from), I think we can get you going on it. We have all the info we need to copy the grain bill so no problems there. As for the hop bill, the info is crappy, but because of the nature of the hop bill the lack of information* won't cause too much of a drama here.

So, looking at your last file you posted and it only needs two changes.

1. I have removed the 23 L on the first line of Section D. It is not needed and doesn't do anything in this situation. As Rick mentioned. there is no volume info in the original file, so we can't use that field.

2. I have upped the mash time to 90 minutes as Rick mentioned. When we BIAB we are effectively mashing and sparging at the same time. Rushing this will lower how much 'sugar' you get from the grain.

So nice job on the file Sean :clap:. You are good to go :thumbs:,
PP

..........................................

# Advanced stuff to look at later: Rick mentioned Tinseth, Rager and Garetz above. You won't need to worry about that on this recipe but when you do ones with higher IBU's, this becomes more and more important. See this post as a starter but a search of "Rager" on the forum will quickly lead to something. In this recipe, depending on the formula used, there is a variance of approx 16 to 23 IBU's depending on whether Rager, Garetz or Tinseth is used. Just stick with your file and you will be fine for this one ;).
Last edited by PistolPatch on 01 Mar 2014, 11:08, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by SeanGodd » 3 years ago

Great! Thx PostalPatch!!

I'm glad I got everything filled correctly (for the most part lol). Now I have 2 recipes down. Just need to find one more. Prob something Belgian :thumbs:

Prob not the place for this but can anyone point me to a recipe on here for a Belgian triple or dubbel?
Cheers!!

the Kegs: Kerry's Bock Baby!, Godd's E-Brown, Godd's ESB, Bitter Mister Mom,
In the Carboy: For the love of dunkel,
Up Next: Kerry's Bock Baby!(V1.1)
87 Gals beer - Running Total


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Post by SeanGodd » 3 years ago

Okay so I've found a pretty simple triple recipe, this is one I would like to refine over the months to become one of my staple beers. Since I really enjoy trappist beer. If I could get a little help with the recipe and putting it in the BIABabus that would be great

here is the link - http://www.brewersfriend.com/homebrew/r" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; ... l-s-tripel

I will also attache the BIABacus that I have started.
Greedy Triplets BIABacus PR1.3 - Blank.xls
This will be the last one of the three I want to brew this summer. Hopefully after these three I will have a feel for my new equipment and the BIAB process.
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Last edited by SeanGodd on 03 Mar 2014, 07:34, edited 2 times in total.
Cheers!!

the Kegs: Kerry's Bock Baby!, Godd's E-Brown, Godd's ESB, Bitter Mister Mom,
In the Carboy: For the love of dunkel,
Up Next: Kerry's Bock Baby!(V1.1)
87 Gals beer - Running Total

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Post by Yeasty » 3 years ago

Hi Sean

This is a Jamil recipe and is the same as the one in Brewing classic styles. Your link is a good example of how a High Integrity recipe can drift away from the original. A bit like brewing chinese whispers :argh:

Any way I've attached a file with my version using the book recipe. You may want to adjust the efficiency down a point or two as its a high gravity brew. You will also notice that I've added extract values for the sugar addition.

On the hops I've added an IBU figure of 23. This is a bit of a stab in the dark as Jamil uses rager not Tinseth. I used the Biabacus to calculate this number but it will need confirming. I will have to do some studying on Hops and perceived bitterness.

Let me know if it makes sense.

:thumbs:

Yeasty
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Post by SeanGodd » 3 years ago

Wow thanks for the help with this one yeasty! Much appreciated.

I do have a question since you have the recipe on hand. Do they recommend using all the 2.6lbs of syrup in the boil? I have heard that too much syrup in the pot can lead to hot alcohol flavors. Just wondering if this is brought up in the recipe you have?

If so great, if not I'll survive lol
Cheers!!

the Kegs: Kerry's Bock Baby!, Godd's E-Brown, Godd's ESB, Bitter Mister Mom,
In the Carboy: For the love of dunkel,
Up Next: Kerry's Bock Baby!(V1.1)
87 Gals beer - Running Total

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Post by Yeasty » 3 years ago

SeanGodd wrote:I have heard that too much syrup in the pot can lead to hot alcohol flavors.
I think you are thinking about the "hot" alcohol flavours you can get from not controlling the fermentation temperature when brewing high alcohol beers. JZ says to start the fermentation at 64f (18c) and let is rise slowly to 70f (21c) over a week. Plus you need good attenuation so pitch a good starter,or 15g dry or 3 packs liquid. He also says mash low (149f/65c) and for 90min.

As for your sugar, I'd add it at 60min just before your 1st hop addition. That way it won't mess up your hop utilisation.

:peace:

Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 04 Mar 2014, 04:53, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Yeasty » 3 years ago

Yeasty wrote:On the hops I've added an IBU figure of 23. This is a bit of a stab in the dark as Jamil uses rager not Tinseth. I used the Biabacus to calculate this number but it will need confirming. I will have to do some studying on Hops and perceived bitterness.
I've had another look at this and noticed your hop amounts are yours not JZs. change them to 65g and 14g. I also recalculated the IBU in Tinseth which is now 29.6 IBU. This I feel is a more accurate figure. If your interested this is how I did it.

JZ gives us a VIK figure of 26.5L, by altering the VIF until the VIK hits the 26.5L mark (ish) you will get the approximate EOBV-A figure. In this case its 17.98L or 18L. By putting this number into section D, Biabacus will calculate the hop bill and give you the IBU's in Tinseth for the hop bill in JZs recipe. You can then add this figure into the "Please just set my desired IBU's (Tinseth) to: Box in section D and delete the 18L in the box above.

Go back to the VIF box and set this to your desired amount.

Don't worry if you don't get the above, IBU formulas are a PITA so don't get too hung up on it.. :headhit:

:salute:

Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 04 Mar 2014, 05:47, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by SeanGodd » 3 years ago

Yes IBU formulas can be very daunting :think: But I really appreciate the help! I will make the changes you requested. As for the syrup I always thought you put it in around the end of the boil to not affect the hops?? Around the 10 min mark. I thought that to high of a pre-boil OG can have an adverse affect on hop isomerization. Now don't get me wrong I am just starting out here so if I'm wrong please correct me.
Cheers!!

the Kegs: Kerry's Bock Baby!, Godd's E-Brown, Godd's ESB, Bitter Mister Mom,
In the Carboy: For the love of dunkel,
Up Next: Kerry's Bock Baby!(V1.1)
87 Gals beer - Running Total


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Post by JackRussel » 3 years ago

SeanGodd wrote:Great! Thx PostalPatch!!
Watch out for that PostalPatch! He can go postal if you screw his name up......
Last edited by JackRussel on 04 Mar 2014, 09:16, edited 2 times in total.


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Post by Skink » 3 years ago

Always thought he should have letters behind his name...


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Post by PistolPatch » 3 years ago

"PostalPatch!!!!!!!!" Wtf? :o :shock: :argh: :angry: :angry: :angry: :shoot: :shoot: :shoot:

:lol:

On the IBU bit, for any Jamil recipe (or Brewing Classic Styles recipes), I recommend you only ever use the second line of Section D in the BIABacus. This tends, as a general rule, to balance out two conflicting problems with Jamil/BCS recipes ...

1. Their recipes use the Rager formulas which tends (on most recipes) to give a higher reading than Rager.

2. Their all-grain recipes are nearly always 'extrapolated' from an extract recipes which means that there is less trub and therefore hop utilisation is higher in the extract recipe.

Solving those two problems is most conveniently done by typing in the IBU of the recipe into the second line of Section D of the BIABacus. (This advice is only meant for those recipes though.)

:peace:
PostalPatch PPPP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 04 Mar 2014, 17:16, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by SeanGodd » 3 years ago

PistolPatch wrote:"PostalPatch!!!!!!!!" Wtf? :o :shock: :argh: :angry: :angry: :angry: :shoot: :shoot: :shoot:

:lol:

On the IBU bit, for any Jamil recipe (or Brewing Classic Styles recipes), I recommend you only ever use the second line of Section D in the BIABacus. This tends, as a general rule, to balance out two conflicting problems with Jamil/BCS recipes ...

1. Their recipes use the Rager formulas which tends (on most recipes) to give a higher reading than Rager.

2. Their all-grain recipes are nearly always 'extrapolated' from an extract recipes which means that there is less trub and therefore hop utilisation is higher in the extract recipe.

Solving those two problems is most conveniently done by typing in the IBU of the recipe into the second line of Section D of the BIABacus. (This advice is only meant for those recipes though.)

:peace:
PostalPatch PPPP
Sorry about that PistolPatch :lol:

I agree that a recipe for extract will utilize the hops differently then one for AG. This is why I would add the Syrup at the end of the boil just to pasteurize it. This way it won't affect the hops utilization over the course of the entire boil. Is this correct? I know that normally this is due to the higher OG of extract boil (since it is normally 3Gal in the boil not the full Vol.) But since the syrup will raise the OG would it not affect how much isomerization I will get out of the hops bill??
Last edited by SeanGodd on 04 Mar 2014, 20:47, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Yeasty » 3 years ago

SeanGodd wrote:This way it won't affect the hops utilization over the course of the entire boil.
The Biabacus calculates the Hop bill using the gravity your hops and sugar will produce. If you omit the sugar till 10 min the gravity of the wort is going to be less for the majority of the hop boil time so you will get a higher utilization. That's the way I see it. :dunno: Am I right ??

Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 05 Mar 2014, 00:42, edited 2 times in total.
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"

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