Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

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shetc
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Post by shetc » 2 years ago

Mad_Scientist wrote:Steve,

I suppose it's the location of your mango trees in Fort Lauderdale?
https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/20772/lot/97/

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Last edited by shetc on 19 Sep 2015, 20:01, edited 6 times in total.

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Post by shetc » 2 years ago

shetc wrote:
Mad_Scientist wrote: I am attaching a BIABacus file of how I interpreted Charlie Papazian's (3rd Edition 2003) recipe. I have the book and the recipe can be found on page 311. The hops are listed in HBU's and are explained on page 169, hence 1 oz at 8% equals 8 HBU, etc...

I found the recipe grain bill balances well when I entered 18.5 L for the VIF. You will notice this in Section B, before you make any changes. I chose to enter 43 IBU into Section D, per the recipe, instead of the VAW, in this case it's 20.53 L. 43 IBU was the higher number.

Please reply back for any further questions.

MS
BIABacus PR1.3T - Silver Dollar Porter - MS.xls
This is my next brew, Mr. Mad Scientist!
Excellent beer, MS - thanks!
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Last edited by shetc on 21 Sep 2015, 03:00, edited 6 times in total.


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Post by Syncharmony » 2 years ago

Looking for some feedback on recipe I have adjust a little bit to suit my needs. I am essentially taking the 'Who's your taddy?' porter from the Brewing Classic Styles book and adding some autumn/pumpkin spices to it. I just want to be sure I have converted the recipe correctly and everything looks OK.

BIABacus Pre-Release 1.3T RECIPE REPORT
BIAB Recipe Designer, Calculator and Scaler.
(Please visit http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the latest version.)
Pumpkin Porter
Recipe Overview

Brewer: Adam Schmidt
Style: Porter
Source Recipe Link:
ABV: 5% (assumes any priming sugar used is diluted.)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.052
IBU's (Tinseth): 22.9
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 0.44
Colour: 62.9 EBC = 31.9 SRM

Kettle Efficiency (as in EIB and EAW): 84.1 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 72.1 %

Note: This is a Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash)

Times and Temperatures

Mash: 60 mins at 67 C = 152.6 F
Boil: 60 min
Ferment: days at 19 C = 66.2 F

Volumes & Gravities
(Note that VAW below is the Volume at Flame-Out (VFO) less shrinkage.)
The, "Clear Brewing Terminology," thread at http://www.biabrewer.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Total Water Needed (TWN): 13.08 L = 3.46 G
Volume into Boil (VIB): 11.93 L = 3.15 G @ 1.04
Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW): 8.75 L = 2.31 G @ 1.052
Volume into Fermentor (VIF): 7.5 L = 1.98 G @ 1.052
Volume into Packaging (VIP): 6.95 L = 1.83 G @ 1.013 assuming apparent attenuation of 75 %

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

Note: If extracts, sugars or adjuncts are not followed by an exclamation mark, go to http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (needs link)

72.2% British Pale Ale Malt (7.8 EBC = 4 SRM) 1319 grams = 2.91 pounds
10.6% Brown Malt (185.3 EBC = 94.1 SRM) 193 grams = 0.43 pounds
10.6% Crystal (105.2 EBC = 53.4 SRM) 193 grams = 0.43 pounds
6.7% Chocolate Malt (932.5 EBC = 473.4 SRM) 122 grams = 0.27 pounds


The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

20 IBU Fuggles Pellets (5%AA) 14 grams = 0.495 ounces at 60 mins
2.9 IBU Fuggles Pellets (5%AA) 5.6 grams = 0.198 ounces at 10 mins


Mash Steps

Mash Type: Pure BIAB (Full-Volume Mash): Saccharifiaction for 60 mins at 67 C = 152.6 F

Strike Water Needed (SWN): 13.34 L = 3.52 G 67.7 C = 153.8 F

Mashout for for 5 mins at 77 C = 170.6 F

Miscellaneous Ingredients

6.23 Cinnamon (Boil) - 1 actual
3.12 Ginger (Boil) - 0.5 actual
1.54 Nutmeg (Boil) - 0.25 actual
1.54 Allspice (Boil) - 0.25 actual

Chilling & Hop Management Methods

Chilling Method: Wort Chiller (Employed 15 mins after boil end.)

Fermentation & Conditioning

Fermentation: White Lab WLP013 at 19 C = 66.2 F

Special Instructions/Notes on this Beer

Add 2/3 of spices with 5 min fuggles addition and add the rest in the fermenter after primary is complete
Last edited by Syncharmony on 25 Sep 2015, 00:39, edited 6 times in total.


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Post by Pyanchev » 2 years ago

Hello there!

I've got this recipe from a friend of mine (who is using multiple vessels) and was wondering if you coulp
help me with converting this to BIAB friendly recipe that I can brew with my equipment. This is my first
brew, so please be gentle :sneak:

- Equipment -

1.Pot - I have a inox, 46 x 40 (height x width in cm) pot that has a 57 liter capacity and has a flat bottom.
2.Fermenter - My fermentation bucket is 40L capacity at the moment, but I can get a bigger one easily if needed.
3.Power source - As for heating, I'll be using gas and Powerfire 3 with 7,5 kW will be my weapon of choice.
4.Cooler - Also, I will be using an immersion chiller for cooling the wort.

- Recipe -

Here is the original recipe. Please note that I have all the listed ingredients in the same amount,
but I will listen for any advice as how to make the best use.

APA 01/2015 12.03.2015
10-A American Pale Ale
Author: Brko
Date: 3/12/2015

Size: 45 L
Efficiency: 75.0%
Attenuation: 75.0%
Calories: 168.88 kcal per 12.0 fl oz

Original Gravity: 1.051 (1.045 - 1.060)
Terminal Gravity: 1.013 (1.010 - 1.015)
Color: 15.17 (9.85 - 27.58)
Alcohol: 4.99% (4.5% - 6.0%)
Bitterness: 37.2 (30.0 - 45.0)

Ingredients:
8 kg (76.2%) Pale Ale Malt - added during mash
1.5 kg (14.3%) Munich Malt Type 2 (Organic) - added during mash
0.5 kg (4.8%) Munich Malt Type 1 (Organic) - added during mash
0.5 kg (4.8%) Pale Wheat Malt - added during mash
20 g (6.7%) Chinook (13.0%) - added during boil, boiled 60 m
20 g (6.7%) Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 60 m
20 g (6.7%) Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 20 m
20 g (6.7%) Chinook (13.0%) - added during boil, boiled 20 m
60 g (20.0%) Cascade (5.5%) - added during boil, boiled 1 m
60 g (20.0%) Chinook (13.0%) - added during boil, boiled 1 m

Cool to 80 °C and add
100 g (33.3%) Citra (12.0%) - rest for 15m

2.0 ea Fermentis US-05 Safale US-05

Schedule:
Ambient Air: 21.11 °C
Source Water: 15.56 °C
Elevation: 0.0 m

Liquor: 27.38 L; Strike: 75.06 °C; Target: 68.0 °C
Sparge: 30.59 L sparge @ 80 °C, 15.0 m; Total Runoff: 48.84 L

- Quick question -
And another question (sorry if this is the wrong place to ask, but I've been reading so much that
I'm not sure of anything, seems like college days all over again) - sparging is not a necessity?
The reason I'm asking is that it might be difficult for one person to maneuver with a heavy bag.

Thank you in advance!

P.S.
Seems like spoiler tags don't work, so I'm sorry for a long post.
Last edited by Pyanchev on 11 Oct 2015, 22:10, edited 6 times in total.


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Post by Scott » 2 years ago

Hey Pyanchev,

I think I can help or at least get you pointed in the right direction. Others here can help even more but let's try to move the process as much as possible...

Certainly understand the "college" analogy. Tons of info and knowledge out there on the web, sometimes seemingly conflicting.

Have you filled out your info into the BIABacus file yet? It is an Excel based spreadsheet. If you don't have it yet, here is a link: viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1869 The Administrator has some good advise - as the file may look a bit daunting at first glance. You don't have to to be a pro with it for it to be very useful and helpful. You have to fill in info about your system, about the recipe, and what ingredients you hope to brew with. The more you use it to brew, the more you understand. (It's like an onion...).

So would be most helpful to you to fill this form as much as possible, post the file with as much info as you can and then either I or someone else can help with finding any errors or questions to get to the next step... Looks like you have most of the info already.

Question on the SIZE though. You list 45L. Is this Volume into packaging (keg, bottles, etc.), Volume into Fermenter, or something else? You will need to know that. If you don't, will just have to make an educated guess, but that will make it difficult to copy the recipe if you don't know the answer to this...


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Post by Scott » 2 years ago

And no - sparging in traditional sense is not necessary with BIAB. Think "Pistol Patch" calls BIAB a continuous full volume sparge, or something like that. For me, when mashing (90 minute), I stir thoroughly before the start. Usually once or twice through the mash I have to pull the bag off the bottom (I use a pulley) and fire up the burner to warm it a few more degrees, then turn off burner. I stir thoroughly each time before covering the lid, re-wrapping the pot with towels, blankets and/or sleeping bag. A small pulley makes the process of pulling the bag up simple for me.


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Post by joshua » 2 years ago

PP would tell you that after the bag is Pulled and Squeezed. You GIB may be 1.0xx.
The Bag Contains 1.0xx gravity.

When you sparge, and use a liter of Hot water, you will receive a gravity of 1.0xx/2 which is less than the GIB, and when you add the Sparge, you will be Diluting the Volume into the Boil and will need to Boil longer, and waste energy.
No matter how Much you Sparge, you will never receive enough Sugar to be worth the Energy to Boil off the water.

Unless your made of $$$$$, sparging BIAB is a Worthless waste of Equipment, Cleanup, and wasted energy.

Sadly, PP has Sung, and has left the Building since early September.
Honest Officer, I swear to Drunk, I am Not God.


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Post by Scott » 2 years ago

Hopefully Pat is just on a temporary hiatus... It sounded like he was in major need of a break. Incredibly knowledgeable and helpful person...


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Post by Pyanchev » 2 years ago

@Scott and Joshua

Well, I've tried to fill BIABacus sheet (attached), and I'm not sure if I did
everything properly. As for the 45L, it is what goes into fermentor.
He used 28L for mashing, and then 31L for sparging - that somehow got
him to 45L in the end.

Now, problem is that BIABacus is warning me even when I put that my desired volime in
fermentor (VIF) is 30L.

Another thing is that BIABacus is saying I need about 6kg of ingredients, and he used
almost 11kg. Therefore, I should input a higher VIF.

It may seem that I have answered my own questions and I feel like I'm annoying
but at the moment - I'm just unsure even on little things like wrapping your
kettle during the mash (saw a guy who didn't actually do it, just lowered the flame).

I thought that people used sparging to get higher kettle to fermenter efficiency.
It seems that difference between the water I need in the begging and what I get
into bottles is less than 70% - is this too low?

P.S. Thank you for helping me, again, like I said, so much information from
different sources and I don't want to mess up on the very beginning. Also, there
is a huge time difference between us so this is the reason why I'm writing now :)
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Post by Scott » 2 years ago

I have a couple of quick answers for you right now. Haven't been able to look at the file and will until later this eve so maybe somebody else could have a look...?

With mashing the issue is keeping the grain at the proper temperature. For me there is no way that I can keep an exact temp with my system, but can keep it fairly close. That works quite well. If you had something in the bottom of your pot, like to keep the bag off the bottom where the bag did not melt, like some kind of a wire rack keep the bag in an inch or so up then you may be able to keep the flame on with your setup and keep it low temperature during the mash. I don't know but I would see it could be possible. With me I don't do it that way I turn off the flame and wrap the pot. That works too. Most do it my way but either could work. So that should be on personal preference or just how your system is set up for whichever way works the best. If you don't have some kind of a wire rack on the bottom to keep your mesh bag away from the intense heat at the very bottom of the pot then just turn it off and wrap the pot.

BIAB is a continuous sparge in so you do not need to do anything more complicated. You don't need a 3-vessel sparge.

I figured if you filled out the form a lot of things would become self-explanatory to you and it would move you down the road on your knowledge level so glad to hear that part did work out. Should be fairly easy for someone to catch the problem if there is one with reviewing your spreadsheet. And all of us were at that same point not too long ago really; we had many of the same questions that you were having right now. In fact on the website here you could probably do some searches and see some of the past responses. Pat, or PistolPatch / PP - tends to have very clear and well thought out responses. Very good things from some of the other people too, so don't disregard other experienced folks either (Joshua has a lot of experience!).


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Post by joshua » 2 years ago

Pyanchev, you should enter the Desired IBU's(22.9) in to section 'D' where it says Desired Ibu's to get the Proper Amount of Hops for your Batch.
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Post by Scott » 2 years ago

Pyanchev - yeah, looks like you are on your way. If you haven't yet, may want to review "clear brewing terminology". Some of these terms can be a little confusing. Here is a link: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=2685

If you know what the VAW of the recipe is (wort volume after wort has cooled, before fermenter) there is a field for that. I try to fill as much out as possible. Did you notice (going down the first page) you put in the recipe and the table to the right - for malt and hops is titled "what you will use" or something to that effect. That one really confused me at first. If things are going astray there are things that can act as "check points"...if the whole thing is filled out. So the different fluid levels and hydrometer readings at different points, helpful for finding where something started to go south. And at the end of the day, "don't worry", it will make beer. And if my experience will be like yours, even with mistakes, beer has always turned out good. And I expect yours will too!l :drink:


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Post by Pyanchev » 2 years ago

@Scott

I have a false bottom, more than an inch high, that should give me enough space. But I can surely try to get some isolation.
As for the topic you suggested, I was already there, that is where I found the complex graph and efficiency info (you only
get little above 20L in bottles from more than 40L water used at the beginning) that got me "worried".

@joshua

I got into a small problem here, but I think I've figured it out. The original recipe says 37,2 IBU and he used 300g of different
hops to reach the figure for 45L VIF. What BIABacus is showing me is that I should use only half of the original hop bill to reach the
same IBU for 30L VIF. This happened because I put 15 minutes for Citra addition which is actually added during the 15 minutes rest after boil
- therefore, this value should probably be put as 1 minute addition in BIABacus. This also means that, according to BIABacus, I would need 460g
on 45L VIF to reach the same IBU.

Could this be due to the difference between multiple vessels and BIAB approach? Or Citra addition after the
boil won't have any effect on IBU since there will be no time for isomeration?

Thank you for patience and support! :)


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Post by joshua » 2 years ago

Pyanchev, the Hop bitterness in BIABACUS, is determined by Tinseth's method.

Tinseth vs Rager vs Daniels do not determine the Hop values the same way.

Also, the Hops you use may not be the Same as tho Original recipe due to the Volume and Gravity difference.
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Post by mereside » 1 year ago

Hi everyone this is my second post and will be my second AG my first was a stout which I have just bottled so waiting impatiently to try my fruits of my labor.
So on to my questions I would like to make a german wheat beer now my first AG I used a small pot and had some help with calcs and things to get me into the right ball park but now I have got I believe a 33ltr pot which is 345mm wide x 350mm deep. My fermentor is 25ltr
I would like to stick to BIAB correctly so if anyone could help me out firstly with a recipe and also help me understand the BIAB calculator, which I had a little play around but I am unsure on how much i can brew in my pan so all help greatly received.
I have at the minute german wheat, weyemans pilsner and hops I have are challenger,perle and tetnang in my possession but can get others to suit if needed. Thanks in advance wayne


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Post by PistolPatch » 1 year ago

Welcome to the forum mereside :salute:,

The forum layout is a bit confusing at present. The old BIAB Calculator has been replaced by The BIABacus. Have a read of that first post in that link as while The BIAbacus can look a bit daunting, it's much easier to use, very powerful and protects you from making mistakes* really well.

I've designed a German Wheat Beer recipe for you and added it to The BIABacus file below. In Section B, you'll see that I typed in 20 L as that is a safe volume, for most recipes, to ferment in a 25 L fermentor.

*When you open the file at the bottom of this post, the top left will look like this...
mereside1.jpg
The first red arrow tells you the recipe won't work and the second arrow points to the reason why. Basically, your pot is not big enough to do a full-volume brew resulting in 20L into your fermentor.

The easiest way to get rid of these red warnings, is to keep lowering the Volume into Fermentor in Section B until they disappear. If you play around with that field, you'll find that the warnings disappear when you get down to 15.0 L. If you are happy with a batch of 15 L into fermentor then we need go no further. If you are not happy with it, then you need to start playing around in Section W but anything you do there will cost you either in extra equipment, labour, effort, time, quality or a combo of all these.

...

The above is a lot to take on board mereside. Just just relax for a few days, have a bit of a play around with The BIABacus, see how Section K changes when you change anything else. It's a good thing to study while you are having a beer as your mind is less likely to be racing.

Once you've given yourself time to do the above, we can then put a final plan into place for you.

:peace:
pp
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Post by mereside » 1 year ago

Great stuff thanks so much for your help, I now see I was looking at the wrong page before this makes much more sense wayne


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Post by mereside » 1 year ago

Pistol patch I have played with BIABacus and happy to continue as a 15l end batch for the fermentor. My question now is do I mash at one temp then mash out at a higher temp or is it best to step the temps of the mash for a wheat beer, ps I hope you all had a great christmas, atb wayne.


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Post by joshua » 1 year ago

Wayne, what do you Currently use to heat your Pot? Electric/Stove or Gas?
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Post by mereside » 1 year ago

currently using a rangemaster gas cooker using the 3.2kw wok burner and the 3kw ring next to it as well but I have just bought a 7kw gas burner I need to pick it up this week, atb wayne


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Post by joshua » 1 year ago

Wayne, when you get the new Unit, see how Low it can be set.

Every Mash Step has a minimum and Maximum temperature, and a duration at each step.

If your Heater has a low Setting, you should be able to Heat the water and Grains from your Infusion Temperature, to any temperature you need

If your making a Wheat beer, you may want to start with a Protein/Peptidase rest for Mash-in between 113–128F (45–53C) for 15 to 30 minutes.

There are Other Steps, you may want, so see https://byo.com/mead/item/1497-the-scie ... ep-mashing

Good Luck, as this Style Brewing takes the Most effort you use.
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Post by mereside » 1 year ago

great thanks for all your help, Wayne

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Post by shetc » 1 year ago

Ok Guys, here's another of my attempts to convert a published recipe to the BIABacus. First of all, I want to make a gose as I really like the style. Secondly, I chose this recipe as it states "Collect enough wort in the kettle to allow for a final volume of 5.5 gallons after a 60 minute boil" -- I am hoping this is similar to the VAW and therefore this recipe has some integrity. Please have a look at the attached BIABacus and let me know if it does have integrity. Thanks!!

BIABacus Pre-Release 1.3T RECIPE REPORT
BIAB Recipe Designer, Calculator and Scaler.
(Please visit http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the latest version.)
Gosetown Beer

Recipe Overview

Brewer: shetc
Style: Gose
Source Recipe Link: http://www.homebrewersassociation.org/h ... nitz-gose/
ABV: 4.9% (assumes any priming sugar used is diluted.)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.045
IBU's (Tinseth): 3.6
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 0.08
Colour: 4.8 EBC = 2.4 SRM

Kettle Efficiency (as in EIB and EAW): 86.2 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 77.7 %

Note: This is a Multi-Step Mash - See 'Mash Steps' Below

Times and Temperatures

Mash: 90 mins at 65 C = 149 F
Boil: 90 min
Ferment: 14 days at 20 C = 68 F

Volumes & Gravities
(Note that VAW below is the Volume at Flame-Out (VFO) less shrinkage.)
The, "Clear Brewing Terminology," thread at http://www.biabrewer.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Total Water Needed (TWN): 30.72 L = 8.11 G
Volume into Boil (VIB): 28.38 L = 7.5 G @ 1.035
Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW): 21 L = 5.55 G @ 1.045
Volume into Fermentor (VIF): 18.92 L = 5 G @ 1.045
Volume into Packaging (VIP): 18.22 L = 4.81 G @ 1.007 assuming apparent attenuation of 84 %

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

Note: If extracts, sugars or adjuncts are not followed by an exclamation mark, go to http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (needs link)

44.4% German Pilsner (2.8 EBC = 1.4 SRM) 1644 grams = 3.62 pounds
44.4% German Wheat (2.5 EBC = 1.3 SRM) 1644 grams = 3.62 pounds
1.4% Acidulated Malt (3.3 EBC = 1.7 SRM) 52 grams = 0.11 pounds
9.7% Acidulated Malt (3.3 EBC = 1.7 SRM) 360 grams = 0.79 pounds

The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

3.6 IBU Czech Saaz Pellets (4%AA) 7.1 grams = 0.249 ounces at 60 mins

Mash Steps

Mash Type: Multi-Step Mash - First Step: Starch Conversion for 90 mins at 65 C = 149 F

Strike Water Needed (SWN): 31.32 L = 8.27 G 67.4 C = 153.4 F
for 45 mins at C = F

Second Step: After 45 mins of mash, add remaining acid malt (360 grams) and continue to mash, stirring every 15 minutes, for another 45 minutes. Don’t worry if mash temperature falls slightly during secondary mash.

Mashout for for 15 mins at 76 C = 168.8 F

Miscellaneous Ingredients

0.99 Whirfloc Tablet (Boil) 10 Mins - Clarity

Chilling & Hop Management Methods

Hopsock Used: Y (Pulled 90 mins after boil end.)

Chilling Method: Immersion chiller (Employed 0 mins after boil end.)

Fermentation & Conditioning

Fermentation: WLP029 German Ale for 14 days at 20 C = 68 F

Secondary Used: N
Crash-Chilled: Y
Filtered: N
Req. Volumes of CO2: 2.5
Serving Temp: 4 C = 39.2 F
Condition for 14 days.
Consume within 6 months.

Special Instructions/Notes on this Beer

"Use RO water per original recipe.

After 45 mins of mash, add remaining acid malt and continue to mash, stirring every 15 minutes, for another 45 minutes. Don’t worry if mash temperature falls slightly during secondary mash.

At 5 mins remaining in boil, add 10g salt and 7g GROUND dry-fried whole coriander seeds."
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Last edited by shetc on 22 Feb 2016, 00:53, edited 6 times in total.


PistolPatch
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Post by PistolPatch » 1 year ago

Bit quiet here atm isn't it shetc? Long time since anyone has used this thread surprisingly :think:. Your recipe, however, being as interesting as it is, warrants more than ever, posting to the Recipes forum once it's sorted.

...

I had some other stuff written above, but just deleted it, as I saw a way that a new reader could get confused by the statement, "Collect enough wort in the kettle to allow for a final volume of 5.5 gallons after a 60 minute boil." A new brewer to all-grain could easily interpret "final volume" to mean anything from 'VFO - Volumne at Flame-out,' through to 'VIP - Volume into Packaging'. New brewers, rightly so, are often very careful readers, and given the amount of nonsense they have to read, they need to read carefully!

Anyway, just to be sure, I've used advanced sections of The BIABacus and a knowledge of defaults often used, and formula errors that exist in some other software, and the author does mean either VFO or 'VAW - Volume of Ambient Wort.' We can't tell which one he means, though and there is VAW is always 4% lower than VFO.

We can live with that, but all this low-quality terminology quickly snowballs into a mess. I think your interpretation of the recipe is great though mate ;). The only correction I would have is to make the first step 45 minutes (first line of Section E). I think 45 plus 45 and your 15 min mash-out is plenty.

Nice job :salute:,
PP
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shetc
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Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City: Pembroke Pines

Post by shetc » 1 year ago

PistolPatch wrote:The only correction I would have is to make the first step 45 minutes (first line of Section E). I think 45 plus 45 and your 15 min mash-out is plenty
Thanks PistolPatch! Really appreciate the input. I changed the first step of the mash to 45 minutes. I did notice that I can't type anything into the fields in first column of the Advanced Mashing Steps section -- not sure if that is a bug or not.

Should I copy the recipe to the Recipes forum before or after I make a batch?
Last edited by shetc on 24 Feb 2016, 08:21, edited 6 times in total.

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