Chilling Myths - Asking the right questions

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Chilling Myths - Asking the right questions

Post by PistolPatch » 5 years ago

A few months ago, in various other threads here, we were exploring chilling and no-chilling. I want to try and bring those scattered threads and thoughts together.

History

The main questions being asked were...

1. If I want a quality beer, is no-chill or chilling better?
A. Both methods seem to produce beers of equal quality.

2. If I no-chill, what time adjustments should I make to the recipe?
A. See below.

Adjusting Hop Addition Times

After today, I am now more sure than ever, that we have been asking the wrong questions re no-chill and chill time adjustments. The existing argument has always been, "If I no-chill, my hops will be exposed to higher temperatures than a brewer who chills." This seems like a reasonable question until you consider the following...

1. A professional brewer does not commence the chill until 30 minutes or sometimes more after the boil. (Confirmed that today.)
2. Some home-brew chillers, like the pro brewers, whirlpool and let the trub settle for some period of time before transferring from the kettle.
3. Some home-brew chillers turn the chiller on immediately at flame-out.

There are other variations of course but the above three should be enough to show that it is very presumptuous to adjust hop addition times when the original recipe does not even state what chilling method was used and when the chilling actually began.

A Mathematical Solution

Well, seeing as we have three widely used hop IBU estimate formulas that don't agree with each other yet, don't hold your breath on a mathematical solution. At the moment, if you are designing a beer and it is out of style on bitterness, the fastest way to correct this is to simply change the formula you use (Rager/Garetz/Tinseth) - one of them will probably bring you into the style range without you having to add or remove a single gram :roll:.

Recipe Report Solution

I think this is just another area where a few carefully thought out fields on a recipe report can give so much value. If you give me a recipe and tell me you didn't turn your chiller on until 40 minutes after flame out, that gives me a lot more valuable information than whether you chilled or no-chilled.

Make sense?
:peace:
PP
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Post by BobBrews » 5 years ago

PP,

Well thought out PP. I brewed twice this week. I brewed the same recipe twice trying to find the difference between late hopping and dry hopping. :think: I used a spider with the first beer. That is to say I added the bittering hops and then added the 15, 10, 5, 0 minute hops to the spider and then removed the hops sack before I no chilled. The second brew I just added the bittering hops and then no chilled. I will add all the (same) hops additions as dry hops.

So using a hop sack with a spider gives the ability to leave the hops in the pot and taking them out of the wort before no chilling. This way you can come very close to emulating immersion chilled beer without leaving the hop matter in the N/C cube to isomerize. The hops may not be fully utilized by using a hop sack but adding a touch more should make it the same?

So there is another variation to the equation. For those of you that are unfamiliar with a spider and hop sack here is a picture captured from the web.
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Post by PistolPatch » 5 years ago

Good on you Bob. You've got me thinking up lots of side by side hope experiments. (Need some very small kettles :think:). Really looking forward to how your brews above turn out.

I think if your hop sock or spider is loose, then any drop in utilisation would be negligible or perhaps zero with pellet hops as the oils in pellet hops disseminate pretty much straight away. Not sure about flowers and cones :scratch:.
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Post by joshua » 5 years ago

Good Day BB and PP, I have Lurked around the Net for what temperature the Hop Bitterness needs, and experiment with some wort that "missed" hop additions.

The majority of opinions is temperatures below 185F/85c really cuts bitterness to nothing.

I verified temperatures above 190F/87C brings out the bitterness very well.

This also showed me a hop tea for Flavor and Aroma works well, if you don't exceed 185F/85C, and stay above 140F/60C.

So, it will be difficult to determine Total time for Bitterness calculations, IF minutes really matter! :think:
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Post by PistolPatch » 5 years ago

[Think I have gone slightly off-topic here, more into general hop management rather than just the post-boil management of hops sorry :roll:]

Thanks for bumping this Josh :salute:,

Like so many areas of brewing, it's an area where we treat the estimates predicted from software as being 'Gospel,' whereas we really don't know mucjh about this area at all.

BobBrews might be able to help with the actual podcasts but I think tha Jon Palmer has done a few recently where he has questioned a lot of the advice on hop IBU predictions that he has given previously. Good on him!!!! (I think he has just done another on the BeerSmith podcast though I haven't listened to it yet.)

One of the many things that he is now questioning is whether gravity of the beer makes much difference to the hop utilistation. There's heaps more though.

The best opinion (because it is based on real life constant daily experience) I have had on this to date is from Alex Troncoso from Little Creatures. Best talk on hops I have ever heard. I've written about that talk before on here but basically that proved beyond any doubt that existing hop formulas used to estimate IBU's are extremely primitive. IBU's (only one quality of many we want from hops) can be added in various ways at various temperatures and over different times. The first thing he asked us was why does First Wort Hopping add flavour and aroma to the beer when a pure boil bittering addition doesn't? He had heaps more examples of how certain hops treated in different ways will do different things.

When I get more time, I'd love to see if maybe he could write an article on this. It would be amazing.

What Should We Do?

1. Don't treat IBU estimation formulas as gospel. They vary wildly and most software does not interpret them correctly so the exact same recipe in two different programs will not even agree.

2. If starting from scratch on a recipe, use the Tinseth IBU estimation formula as it is the best for all-grain. Furthermore, use the TInseth formula as given from The Caclulator (or when released, The BIABacus) as the results from the formulas on this site do actually match those given on Glen Tinseth's site. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any other software that does though, from memory, I think I have found one or two small time programs out there that do match. (Pretty sure ianh's is one of these.)

3. When scaling recipes from another source, ignore IBU's as much as possible and concentrate on the weights, times and AA% of the hops used. (Many recipes on the internet do not have anywhere near the information required to copy them with any accuracy so don't be surprised if you don't have much luck in this area. Consider buying a book like Brewing Classic Styles when looking at designing recipes as it's one of the very few sources where a recipe can be scaled from well.

4. When giving out recipes on the net, take the time to add more detail about your hop schedule. Put the actual weights and AA% of the hops you used. Did you chill, no-chill? Did you use a hop bag and pull it. If you chilled, how soon after the boil did you start chilling?

Didn't mean to write so much but it is probably the greyest area of brewing there is so I think the occasional long post on this subject certainly doesn't do any harm. (We really need an article from Alex). The more we explore it rather than accept the status quo, the better for everyone.

If anyone has the time, could you put some direct links to podcasts on this subject into this thread with perhaps a brief outline of the points made in the podcast?

That would be excellent :thumbs:,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 04 Oct 2012, 19:51, edited 3 times in total.
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Post by BobBrews » 5 years ago

PP and all,

I have been a proponent of radical brewing because I don't like to be told what to "Think, Do or Say" So I have been brewing my way and trying to challenge every accepted rule that is prefaced with "Because we always did it that way"! The information on hops is mostly wrong and the only thing that is for certain is that we need hops to brew a decent beer!

With all the variables in brewing in general and the variables in hopping. For (regular) home brewers it's almost impossible to repeat a beer exactly. When you add in the space time continuum (wait maybe that's too much?) Anyway, Don't accept IBU's! It's just a marker along the way not the true destination! I really think that we will never corral in hops properly. Just brew it and drink it. If you like what you got then try to replicate it, but don't expect it!

Below is a link to a show I listened to more than once. For those of you new to brewing I included a link to Basic Brewing Radio. It has pod-cast's with subjects on challenging the accepted practices (myths?) of brewing that are are scattered among the general brewing information shows. BBR likes to do collaborative experiments challenging the things we have been taught for years by very knowledgeable people who like us, just accepted everything that has been handed down from our brewing predecessors. "Facts without proof are myths"!

Here is a show on Basic Brewing Radio. That is very interesting and enlightening on hops. Download it and listen at your leisure. Part of this show explains that the hop "fade" we get in beer if from the hops resin just sticking to the inside of the bottle. At least that's what I remember? I guess I better listen again?
April 12, 2012 - Hop Bursting IBU Test
Home Brewer Kim Odland from Norway brewed a beer with an enormous amount of hops added at the end of the boil. Brad Sturgeon from Monmouth College puts it through his lab to look at its IBUs.
http://traffic.libsyn.com/basicbrewing/ ... opbomb.mp3

http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?page=radio
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Post by PistolPatch » 4 years ago

[WARNING: This post is a bit off-topic and mainly intended for 'older' or more experienced members of BIABrewer.info. It's probably worth at least a quick scan by all members though, especially points 2 and 3 below.]

I think Bob's links above are a good sample of how little we really know about hop management. I've written here before how the most interesting talk I ever heard on hop management was from Alex Troncoso from Little Creatures Brewery. He's no longer there but used to brew Little Creatures Pale Ale which either Jamil or John said, when Alex was brewing was, "Just like Sierra Nevada Pale Ale, only better!" Please look up my posts on Alex that I have written here.

I've just been on holiday but noticed several threads here concerning hop management. This site has some very experienced and educated posters - the brewers I am writing to here. You all usually write valuable posts and hopefully I do the same. I think it is time we all stepped up a level though. I'm not entirely sure of how to do this but have a few ideas. I suspect that doing the following things would make a massive difference in how we can best help other members and each other*...

1. Admit that many things can't be quantified: Hop and chilling management is a great example. The best formulas we use will only get the brewere in the ballpark and, if you publish a recipe that doesn't say how you chilled and when you employed the chilling, you really can't talk well to others about a hop bill.

2. Learn and use the terminology that has been developed by BIABrewer.info: EOBV, EOBV-A, VIF and VIP are much easier terms to use than batch size which can mean any one of those four things. Ten minutes of study of this post will get any experienced brewer familiar with this very easy terminology that has taken several years to develop, simple though it is. That post shows there are only six essential and extremely valuable terms to learn.

3. Consider learning the BIABacus for 30 minutes: Quite a few of the experienced brewers that actively post here have learned the BIABacus. Many active posters and friends of mine are still waiting though for it to be finalised or made into a 'real' program. If you learn the BIABacus and use it as a communication tool, you will be fast-tracking the new generation of brewers to a whole new level just as BIAB has. The BIABacus is the ultimate fast-track in educational software despite it's lack of drop-down lists etc, etc. Have a beer and try it out...

AcesHigh dropped in for a beer this arvo and he uses another program. I think we spent less than a minute putting his set-up into the BIABacus and then three more looking at all the info it gave. He saw things he hadn't seen before. Another five minutes was spent on the current limitations and what we could do in the future if we get some enthusiastic programmers on board.

It is no exaggeration to say that many thousands of hours have been spent on the BIABacus, the site re-structure (still being worked on) etc, etc. I said to AcesHigh this afternoon that even I, long-winded poster that I am, could work full-time on this site for a year and even then the current goals would most probably not be complete. Most of these current goals, information-wise, can already be found on BIABrewer.info. Sometimes they will take 10 minutes to find by an experienced poster. Sometimes it will take 30 seconds. Can you 'older' members help the newer members find them or write new answers?

That last sentence would be my fourth point here.

I'm a long-winded poster which has its advantages and disadvantages. I know most of you regular posters do read what I write, god knows how :lol:, but do you think the above four points are reasonable?

Basically they are all about taking a few minutes to learn a common language and be knowledgeable about what info we already have here so as we can get new brewers up to speed on talking about the 'real' grey areas of brewing.

AcesHigh has got me drunk!
PP

* I think our goal here on BIABrewer.info should be to knock basic questions on the head as quickly as possible. Other forums can spend four hundred posts and get no answer on the most basic of subjects. I think that any thread here that continues for any length should mean we are all having fun and that the question has been answered or that the question is one of the many grey areas we are attempting to turn into black and white.
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Post by Lylo » 4 years ago

Your points are very reasonable. Regarding hop management,this is so inexact,there are to many unquantifiable factors involve,especially when you multiply the by two(your numbers and the source numbers). I referring to AA percentages,hop age and handling. How can we accurately predict what anyone actually used?
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Post by joshua » 4 years ago

Lylo, Did you hand Raise??? [MODNOTE: Replies to this can be found here.]

I found some Old books that say 1 pound(us) for Bitterness is Minimal, and up to 3 Pounds is normal.
It says Flavor hops are very good at 2 pounds.

Of course, these values are "rule of thumb" per Barrel (31.2gallons us)

There is a mention That Gravity should be held Between 1.040 and 1.055 for proper usage.
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Post by mally » 4 years ago

Here is a show on Basic Brewing Radio. That is very interesting and enlightening on hops. Download it and listen at your leisure. Part of this show explains that the hop "fade" we get in beer if from the hops resin just sticking to the inside of the bottle. At least that's what I remember? I guess I better listen again?
I have a question about this; The Apollo hop brew i did a while back has started to suffer from this "hop fade" as predicted. However, i wonder if it is possible to resuspend the aroma oils by agitation? or are they gone & lost forever?

I guess i could try this out myself, as i bottle my beers, i could agitate one over a period of time & try a side by side after it has settled again. Just thought i would see if anybody has any thoughts on this?
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Post by BobBrews » 4 years ago

mally,

Drink the beer "as is" and then fill the bottle half way with water and shake the hell out of it! Then taste the water! It would be interesting if the water was a bit hoppy? Maybe clean your pallet in between?
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Post by PistolPatch » 4 years ago

mally wrote:
Here is a show on Basic Brewing Radio. That is very interesting and enlightening on hops. Download it and listen at your leisure. Part of this show explains that the hop "fade" we get in beer if from the hops resin just sticking to the inside of the bottle. At least that's what I remember? I guess I better listen again?
I have a question about this; The Apollo hop brew i did a while back has started to suffer from this "hop fade" as predicted. However, i wonder if it is possible to resuspend the aroma oils by agitation? or are they gone & lost forever?

I guess i could try this out myself, as i bottle my beers, i could agitate one over a period of time & try a side by side after it has settled again. Just thought i would see if anybody has any thoughts on this?
mally, you see the bit above about, "resin sticking to the inside of the bottle?"

You know how I hardly ever or never swear here? Well, now I am going to. Here's some questions first...

1. I don't have time to listen to every podcast but who said hop resins stick to the bottle?

2. Did whoever tell you about the hop resins tell you about how much side by side testing they had done to draw that conclusion?

....

Still not going to swear :)

...

Here's my thought/s...

1. I am cranky with whoever posted the resin thing above because as far as I can see they have offered no evidence. (Pretty usual in brewing :smoke:).

2. And here is the main thing... Let's say you cooked a curry tonight. Would you expect it to taste the same in a month if kept under refrigeration? Of course not - it would be rancid! Chemical reactions happen over time and most of these cannot be reversed so...

3. Shaking the bottle or keg will not yield a result I don't think.

Solution

The malt side of any beer is fairly stable. If you get hop fade, look at ways of topping it up. BobBrew's will have some advice on this. I have none because I have done it rarely but I do want to do it more.

...

Great post mally :thumbs:. You not only ask the best questions but you also take the time to absorb, understand and pass on answers if there are any. If BIABrewer.info had some sort of 'following' system, I'd definitely be following you.

:peace:
PP
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Post by Lylo » 4 years ago

PP, I am an avid follower of The Brewing Network and have been working my way thru the archives.
As with brewing I am not very good at taking notes, so I don't recall which episode it was that they had a scientist from one of the labs that do IBU evaluations for the breweries.
This guy's experiments showed a lot of bitterness and flavour was being attached to the sides of bottles over time.
I will try to find the show segment so that I don't have to quote "some guy".
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Post by PistolPatch » 4 years ago

If the resinous oil got attached to the sides of the bottle, why would it ever come off again?

Btw, no need to quote some guy (I think I actually know the podcast). The IBU measurements may, even on just a single brew, tell us that bitterness decreases over time but those measurements do not tell us why.

This bitterness being lost to the sides of bottles thing is pure bullshit to me. How many cartons did they rest lying on their side and how many cartons got stored upright before they tested? (I know they didn't).

Any idiot can be asked to do a podcast/interview. I've done a few over the years (non-brewing) but only one on BIAB and I held that one off for several years. Some podcasts are great and others I hear and am frightened at the simultaneous lack of knowledge and display of confidence of some 'experts'.

What I am trying to say here is re-consider my last post above that mentioned, 'rancid'. Rely more on your common sense than on some 'home brewing,' experts.

That's fair enough isn't it?
PP
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Post by Lylo » 4 years ago

I think I will dig out an old bottle of IPA and give Bob's experiment a try before I call B.S.
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Post by mally » 4 years ago

The imposter pretending to be PP please bring him back :lol: (In fact, if you had sworn i would have thought that was true)!

From memory - analysis of the IBU's of the beer after being emptied from the bottle, then analysis of the residue of the beer bottle after rinsing out with water showed a marked IBU meaasurement in the residue?

So assumptions were made that it must have been "clinging" to the walls, however, to me it could also be trapped within any dregs/yeast etc (if there were any)?

They didn't mention their statistical analysis population (so maybe n=1), but i thought it had credibility anyway (because it satisfied a simple & neat answer). Which leads me back to my original question;

If your aroma compounds are having a holiday on the walls of your vessel, how can you get them back home?
If they are not, where have they gone? If they have degenerated into non-aroma compounds, how can i stop/reduce that happening?
There must be a solution to this, otherwise all the macros/micros would have sell by dates on their beers of 2 months? Or maybe they know it happens and overcompensate with more hop additions.
But you could buy 2 bottles of their beer and drink them at opposite ends of their use by date spectrum & have 2 completely different beers? :think:
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Post by PistolPatch » 4 years ago

mally wrote:The imposter pretending to be PP please bring him back :lol:
That imposter is out of control :argh:. What a grumpy bastard :?. Reminds me of me at my very worst :lol:.

mally, when you said, "...you could buy 2 bottles of beer and drink them at opposite ends of their use by date spectrum & have 2 completely different beers?" I think this is right.

I think the best info on this can be found in the BeerSmith podcast with John Palmer. In that he talks a fair bit on hop fade. I think that podcast will give you the best answers.

And, if anyone can dig up the podcast where they talk about the hop residue thing, I wouldn't mind a listen/re-listen. I think the only one I heard on testing the hop residue was a Basic Brewing podcast which was an interesting one as well. I'm not sure which one it was though it could have been the April 12 2012 one called, "Hop Bursting IBU Test".

Btw, I think that imposter has listened to a few of the podcasts that I have. The last crappy one I heard had a guy explaining a brewing method for an hour but he had never done it himself :roll:.

You gotta laugh,
PP
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Post by BobBrews » 4 years ago

:drink: :drink: :drink: :drink: :drink: :drink: :drink:

April 12, 2012 - Hop Bursting IBU Test
Home Brewer Kim Odland from Norway brewed a beer with an enormous amount of hops added at the end of the boil. Brad Sturgeon from Monmouth College puts it through his lab to look at its IBUs.


http://www.basicbrewing.com/index.php?p ... radio-2012

Direct link to a very interesting experiment with hops.
http://ec.libsyn.com/p/c/b/6/cb6cb5bd39 ... id=4441781
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Post by HbgBill » 4 years ago

Thanks BB.. totally forgot about that broadcast. Still leaves a ton of questions. Be interesting to know if any of the breweries that are large enough or interested enough are, or have, run experiments that take this a step further.
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Post by mally » 4 years ago

Cheers PP, will listen to that.

I wish Bob would stop putting links to these weird podcasts too.
I think it is the same one (as above), but I still cannot comprehend the 50 IBU limit thingy :scratch:

unless i completely misunderstood it, if you put 100g or 1Kg of hops (single addition) you will get no discernible difference?
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Post by BobBrews » 4 years ago

mally,

What I understand is that the magical IBU limit is about fifty in the boil. Late hops and dry hops are OK and will raise the IBU's but the length of the boil and the amount of IBU's extracted stay at around fifty for the boil?? I know that other oils and hop matter produce a bitterness that are perceived as IBU's but are in fact not actually hop oils. This may have to go back to Brad Sturgeon from Monmouth College for a real experiment??? I guess I may have to listen to the podcast again??
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PistolPatch
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Post by PistolPatch » 4 years ago

Some of you know that I have had some real problems getting a straight answer from pro brewers as to when their chill actually starts. One said at less than ten minutes and another said at about 40 minutes. What the...?

On the weekend, I finally got an answer that makes sense. Funnily enough, it was from one of our earliest BIAB brewers :party:. Forgot to ask if it was okay to say his name so will leave it out for now but...

When does chilling start in a pro brewery?

After asking so many questions on this one issue, I can't believe it has taken so long to find the answer out and that it hasn't been written anywhere else. If I comprehended correctly, what happens at flame-out in a pro-brewery is that the wort gets transferred from the kettle to a whirlpooling vessel. (Maybe this is what the pros simply call, "the whirlpool," but I, for one, didn't realise it was a whole separate vessel :interesting:.)

It takes about 8 minutes in the brewery this brewer works at to drain the kettle into the whirlpool vessel. It then takes 40 minutes for the whirlpool vessel to get drained, via a chiller, into the fermentor.

I may have some of the above procedure or stats incorrect but the long and short of it all was that some of the wort in a pro brewery is getting chilled almost immediately after flame-out and the dregs are getting chilled almost an hour after flame-out.

This is why...

If you convey a recipe to someone else in the homebrew world, it helps a lot if you talk about not only what your hop specs were but also how you handled them, how you chilled and how much time that chill took.

Later,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 03 Jul 2013, 20:19, edited 3 times in total.
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shetc
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Post by shetc » 3 years ago

Bump


joshua
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Post by joshua » 3 years ago

For a Bump, I have Miss-read 2 oz of Millennium hops....
Alpha Acids 14.5 - 16.5%
Beta Acids 4.3 - 5.3%

And programmed the Beta hops for bitterness in 3 Gallon Batch(2 oz)....

It grabbed My Friend and I around Our Throats, and Choked Us.

Great Flavor though.
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