Calculating IBU's

Post Reply

Topic author
flhb
Craft
Craft
United States of America
Posts: 34
Joined: 2 years ago
Region: USA & Canada
Preferred Brewing Method: Multi-Vessel All-Grain (MVA)
City:

Calculating IBU's

Post by flhb » 1 year ago

I was reading the May 2nd post on brulosophy.com comparing a hop stand to a traditional 20 min hop addition when and I came across a paragraph that I thought this site would appreciate:

"... These results also leave me curious about IBU formulas. The boiled hops batch was projected to be at 115 IBU compared to just 84 IBU for the hop stand beer. However, lab testing proved that not only were the beers nearly similar, but that the hop stand beer was actually slightly more bitter (by 2 IBU) than the boiled hops batch. I’ve long believed that IBU formulas are useful only for comparisons within a given brewing system, but now I’m beginning to wonder if they’re even that useful. Obviously, the way hops were added in this case dramatically changed the way the IBUs were calculated yet had little to no impact on the finished product and no appreciable impact on actual IBUs. ..."

http://brulosophy.com/2016/05/02/hop-st ... t-results/

User avatar

Rick
Gold
Gold
United States of America
Posts: 760
Joined: 4 years ago
Location: Pennsylvania
Region: USA & Canada
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City: East Greenville

Post by Rick » 1 year ago

While the results are compelling, it would be nice to see the "experiment" repeated quite a few more times to help rule out the human error element (measuring water, grain, hops, etc ..). I'd also like to see a bit more detail of his brewing methods.

Experiments like these usually bring questions, and if the brewer is not set on answering them (or at least attempting) it kinda leaves us dead in the water.


Topic author
flhb
Craft
Craft
United States of America
Posts: 34
Joined: 2 years ago
Region: USA & Canada
Preferred Brewing Method: Multi-Vessel All-Grain (MVA)
City:

Post by flhb » 1 year ago

Brulosophy has a few brewers who perform the experiments. There are definitely a few problems with what they do, not repeating experiments is one of them. But I get why they don't - people want them to constantly test new things and new variables, their blog would be kinda boring if they tested the same thing over-and-over again. My biggest pet-peeve with them is their small sample sizes, but I won't get on my soapbox.

If you take what they provide as info and not a definitive result then these are fun to read. Remember, these are home brewers, not a professional lab. Despite their faults, they provide, IMO, the best analysis on homebrewing available at this time - you take what you can get.

User avatar

Rick
Gold
Gold
United States of America
Posts: 760
Joined: 4 years ago
Location: Pennsylvania
Region: USA & Canada
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City: East Greenville

Post by Rick » 1 year ago

flhb wrote:Brulosophy has a few brewers who perform the experiments. There are definitely a few problems with what they do, not repeating experiments is one of them. But I get why they don't - people want them to constantly test new things and new variables, their blog would be kinda boring if they tested the same thing over-and-over again. My biggest pet-peeve with them is their small sample sizes, but I won't get on my soapbox.

If you take what they provide as info and not a definitive result then these are fun to read. Remember, these are home brewers, not a professional lab. Despite their faults, they provide, IMO, the best analysis on homebrewing available at this time - you take what you can get.

While I appreciate what they do, and take it at face value ... I really don't appreciate how they take what seems to be a normal brew day, and masquerade it as something it is not. They are intelligent and thoughtful, but in the end they are doing xBmt's for all of the wrong reasons (clicks? Gear? Sponsorship?). It would be nice if they took a bit more care, as to not mislead the more gullible readers. It's just going to be more work for Pat to clean up the mess :lol: (as well as other forums)! To me, all of these xbmt's seem like an afterthought to something that was already planned out.

I will continue to read their work with an open mind, hoping it turns into something a bit more substantial over the years.

In a perfect world, these guys would be made up on 50-100 Siebel Institute graduates ... with a baseline skill set that would be very formidable as a source of information.
Last edited by Rick on 03 May 2016, 00:47, edited 1 time in total.


Topic author
flhb
Craft
Craft
United States of America
Posts: 34
Joined: 2 years ago
Region: USA & Canada
Preferred Brewing Method: Multi-Vessel All-Grain (MVA)
City:

Post by flhb » 1 year ago

I think they are filling a void in the marketplace for home brewing data/experimentation. I don't think they will ever get to a point where you and I are fully satisfied with the data. My hope is that someone who can really do this stuff right comes along and usurps them and really starts answering our questions. I would definitely pay for some good content like that. But until that happens, it's the best we got and I hope people (or at least most people) understand its limitations.

User avatar

Rick
Gold
Gold
United States of America
Posts: 760
Joined: 4 years ago
Location: Pennsylvania
Region: USA & Canada
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City: East Greenville

Post by Rick » 1 year ago

They don't have to be "perfect"/lab quality to have valuable (to me) "data". There is a lot to be said for continuous improvement, but right now I fail to see structure or direction in their process. It all seems pretty arbitrary for now, relative to diving deeper down a rabbit hole that they already broke ground on. They have plenty of worthy material just waiting to be improved/advanced/challenged.

I'm actually entertaining the idea of brewing 10 consecutive side by side 1.070 IPA's, with any tweaks I deem worthy. I'm pretty content with messing with variables to search for what I believe to be the best process. It might take me 2 years, but I don't mind woodshedding for data to educate myself further about this style.

I have a batch going now, fermented with 2 different yeasts. Next I plan to build 100% RO water, and compare that to the profile I have been using for 3 years.


Contrarian
Gold
Gold
Posts: 228
Joined: 4 years ago
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Calculating IBU's

Post by Contrarian » 1 year ago

Given that all IBU formulas calculate 0minute or later additions as contributing 0 bitterness it is pretty clear they are wrong. Probably more useful for boil calculations.

Brulosophy has some interesting ideas but it is quasi scientific at best and probably not scientific at all. As anyone who has read anything on this site would know, one measurement in one brew tells you very little. Multiple measurements over multiple brew days gives a clearer picture.

While interesting to brulosophy blog is a series of anecdotes and the plural of anecdote isn't data.


PistolPatch
Gold
Gold
Australia
Posts: 5296
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Region: Oceania
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Post by PistolPatch » 1 year ago

Good thread flhb ;),

Regarding the IBU side of things, I just wrote a post here that contains some thoughts on this plus some relevant links for those who haven't read them already.

The new site will have a whole section devoted to experimentation. I won't go into detail here apart from saying how difficult solid experimentation is. Here's one example...

We've, on and off, been trying to solve priming and carbonation questions on this site for a long time as the range of advice and results varies wildly. You think finding the right answers would be simple but it's far from it. This thread has had many hours spent on just the design and after even more hours spent by ShorePoints and myself, I think we'll wipe the existing thread out and start again.

Personally, I don't think that the existing site structure can handle this area (mind you, we've done it before :interesting:) whereas the new site will. As you can see in that thread, it's just too hard for most people to contribute.

What that priming thread does show is just how much time it can take to discover even the right questions to ask, let alone getting them answered. As Rick implied, one person's results on a single brew don't tell us much. In an area such as priming or hop flavour and aroma additions, the variables become very complex.

They definitely require a lot of time thinking before the experiments can even begin.

In saying all that, all experiments are a bit of fun and, if you keep your scientific hat on, then there's often something to be learned. Problems only occur when single experiments or poorly devised ones are relied on. On the internet, such results can spread like a bushfire unfortunately. So, keep your hard hat on!!!

:)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 05 May 2016, 20:15, edited 1 time in total.
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!


Topic author
flhb
Craft
Craft
United States of America
Posts: 34
Joined: 2 years ago
Region: USA & Canada
Preferred Brewing Method: Multi-Vessel All-Grain (MVA)
City:

Post by flhb » 1 year ago

Well, my intent wasn't to have a long discussion on brulosophy and experimenting in general, but it's interesting anyways.

Post Reply

Return to “Measurement, Mathematics and Records”

Brewers Online

Brewers browsing this forum: No members and 4 guests