Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Try to post other equipment in an appropriate forum of "The Brewing Process" below.
Post Reply

Topic author
Scott
Gold
Gold
United States of America
Posts: 544
Joined: 2 years ago
Location: Jefferson, Oregon, USA
Region: USA & Canada
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Scott » 1 week ago

Researching brewing a New England IPA, from an article in Craft Beer & Brewing. Lots of hops are added late in this style, in the Whirlpool...along with a double dry hop (and first wort hop). I think the pros whirlpool their wort when hot or very warm, but from what I understand homebrewers that do this normally chill then whirlpool their wort.

https://beerandbrewing.com/1Sce4YbB4ooK ... style-ipas

Does anyone here whirlpool your beer...? I try to give some stirring but have never seen the cone of trub develop, and so don't really worry about it and get rid of most during cold crash. But with this brewing style, appears adding hops during whirlpool is quite important, so may need to rethink it.. :scratch:

This company has some cool gadgets to go on a drill. http://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/s ... nsils.html I'm not looking to get extra crud just for the fun of it, so don't want to waste time doing something extra, but want to brew this beer and have a good result.

Anyone have any input on this one...? Also, has anyone brewed this style, etc.?
Last edited by Scott on 15 Mar 2017, 21:52, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar

Mad_Scientist
Gold
Gold
United States of America
Posts: 1618
Joined: 6 years ago
Location: Panhandle of Florida, USA
Region: USA & Canada
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Mad_Scientist » 1 week ago

No, not whirlpooling, but hop stand. My hopping is typically using pellets and use a paint strainer bag and squeeze after the pull. I have hop "stood" for an hour once, 30 minutes a number of times and have recently gone to 15 minutes.

I once made an IPA (standard single batch) with 1.5 pounds of golden naked oats. That had the best mouth feel ever. :smoke:

Are you following this recipe?
https://beerandbrewing.com/7FW4kwQBtmoQ ... -style-ipa

I have calculated the FWH and whirlpool hop additions like so, to match the recipes IBU. 10% utilization as the max for a hop stand per a byo article. ymmv
NEIPA hopping.JPG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Topic author
Scott
Gold
Gold
United States of America
Posts: 544
Joined: 2 years ago
Location: Jefferson, Oregon, USA
Region: USA & Canada
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Scott » 1 week ago

Hi MS.

Yes, that's the recipe I'm looking at.

Hop Stand - may have to read more about that, vs whirlpool...

Wonder what has best performance or results...? :scratch: IBU results or hop utilization, not just IBUs, may work differently in late additions. (???)

Recently built a hop spider that puts hops in center of the pot. First use was a pain - but realized later it was more "user error"...something simple, so will try one more time before discarding the whole idea. Had some situations with large batches that my bag of hops was over-full. Figured if packed in too tight, won't get the utilization out of the hops. In hindsight another solution might have been to add a second large hop bag - both attached to the sides. My new Hop Spider - don't think it will work correctly with a whirlpool...

Surely someone on this forum has brewed New England IPAs and had them turn out correctly...
Last edited by Scott on 17 Mar 2017, 03:09, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar

Mad_Scientist
Gold
Gold
United States of America
Posts: 1618
Joined: 6 years ago
Location: Panhandle of Florida, USA
Region: USA & Canada
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Mad_Scientist » 1 week ago

I posted the question on my clubs Facebook, see what we get...

... so far the respond is...

"40 minutes isn't the rule.... the few I've done were for far less time.... right around 20 min total and the majority of the time was steeping rather than whirlpool"

"But also I don't steep/whirlpool until the temperature drops to below 180..... I don't want additional bitterness.... Just want flavor and aroma"

"I've found that adding immediately at flameout gives the hops too much time at high temp..... Didn't like the xtra bitterness added"
Last edited by Mad_Scientist on 17 Mar 2017, 06:22, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar

Mad_Scientist
Gold
Gold
United States of America
Posts: 1618
Joined: 6 years ago
Location: Panhandle of Florida, USA
Region: USA & Canada
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Mad_Scientist » 1 week ago

After I pinned John C. down to the recipe in question "How would you brew this recipe?" , he said...

"I like weldworks.... I'd do it like they did! You can see they have very little boil hops.... What's there is from the first wort addition. That .6 oz whirlpool isn't too much.... nor is the the 1.35 oz at the 30 min mark. I still might let the wort cool to somewhere below 190 before starting the whirlpool"

"Had this beer at hunahpu.... It's very good"


Topic author
Scott
Gold
Gold
United States of America
Posts: 544
Joined: 2 years ago
Location: Jefferson, Oregon, USA
Region: USA & Canada
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Scott » 1 week ago

Okay, thanks much MS! I have not had this beer yet, but want to. (Who is John C...? A brewer?)

Honestly have questions... So for a real "whirlpool", seems like I should get a spinning contraption to whirlpool. And if I do that, might want to get a second hop bag to attach to side and not use hop spider.

Timing is a little bit vague and fuzzy...about technique and timing, as this is different from anything I've done. Maybe I will put together a BIABacus later and post it. (Might have posted this elsewhere...so thanks for responding).
Last edited by Scott on 17 Mar 2017, 07:06, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar

Mad_Scientist
Gold
Gold
United States of America
Posts: 1618
Joined: 6 years ago
Location: Panhandle of Florida, USA
Region: USA & Canada
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Mad_Scientist » 1 week ago

John is a brewer in my club, we have a Facebook page.

The IBU's come mostly from the "whirlpool" hops. The recipe says there is 55 IBU's. This is my take on how this might by calculated.

First line is the FWH. 2ND, 3RD AND 4TH are the whirlpool ones. So my best guess it's calculated at 70 mins for FWH (60 mins. boil), then 15 mins., 9 mins. and 4 mins.. I would start the whirlpool hops at flame out, not wait for any magical temperature to be reached first, you would lose IBU's if you wait too long, imo.

It's just a guess. YMMV
NEIPA hopping.JPG
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar

Mad_Scientist
Gold
Gold
United States of America
Posts: 1618
Joined: 6 years ago
Location: Panhandle of Florida, USA
Region: USA & Canada
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Mad_Scientist » 1 week ago

Scott, I wouldn't overthink it on your first attempt on this NEIPA style. Add a pump and a whirlpool arm later if you feel like it You are only talking about a few ounces after flame out. After forty minutes is up after flame out, just pull your spider (squeeze the hops if you like) and then chill (if you like).

Remember that the big breweries do the whirlpooling and the homebrewers emulate them. Rogue brewery, when making the Dead Guy chunks in 608 ozs. at boil and 480 ozs. at flame out and starts a whirlpool.


Topic author
Scott
Gold
Gold
United States of America
Posts: 544
Joined: 2 years ago
Location: Jefferson, Oregon, USA
Region: USA & Canada
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Scott » 1 week ago

Don't want a pump.
Don't want a whirlpool arm...
I do want good results though... If getting a long stainless steel drill bit with a fancy propeller (and use it with my cordless drill) would truly help me make better - more flavorful beer of this style, I would do it... But I want to avoid getting too much extra crap and cluttering my clean brewing operation.

Thanks for your input MS. I do tend to overthink things sometimes. (Often, actually :idiot: )... I'll probably take your advice on this one. Use hopspider and occasionally swirl with the spoon to keep the wort moving. At least through the first 20 minutes.

Then would you chill after 40 min after flameout? Or just no chill (never done a true no-chill).

Will have to review how the BIABacus handles hop additions with whirlpool / post flame-out. Seems like I've done this once before...

Thanks again!


PistolPatch
Gold
Gold
Australia
Posts: 5186
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Region: Oceania
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by PistolPatch » 1 week ago

Scott wrote:
<span title="15 Mar 2017, 21:46">1 week ago</span>
Does anyone here whirlpool your beer...? I try to give some stirring but have never seen the cone of trub develop...... cool gadgets to go on a drill....
Hey Scott ;),

Short on time but noticed the above the other day and it stuck in my mind so here's some quick notes...

If you want a cone to develop with a whirlpool, there's a few key things:

1. Any obstructions on the interior of your kettle, above close to the the bottom, is going to stuff it up either completely or considerably. So, hopsock will bugger it up.
2. A cone develops by having the whirlpool "still" in the centre of the kettle and "fast" on the outside. Things you stick on a drill don't work, in my experience (and I've had several cracks), maybe because they speed the center up first and outside last and probably do it all too quickly. You will get a great whirlpool if you use a large "spoon" and stir the outside until momentum builds, just the same as you wanted to make one in a saucepan (you'd never start stirring in the centre).

NOTE. Be a good experiment that. Chuck some solids in a saucepan and try starting a whirlpool with a blender versus doing it with a gradual outside stir with a spoon.

And on whirlpool IBU's, BIABacus won't handle whirlpool hop IBU's. Some other software attempts to but, funnily enough, that same software doesn't even collect the most basic data that would be necessary for such a calculation. (Maybe check out an old ramble here)

Hope that helps a bit.

I think MS might have mentioned above somewhere to not get worried and just brew it. That's pretty great advice in this area. For a start, you'll get a great beer anyway. Secondly, you're the sort of brewer (I think) that probably takes notes and would actually learn a lot between variations in your procedure.

Will look forward to hearing how you go :thumbs:
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!


Topic author
Scott
Gold
Gold
United States of America
Posts: 544
Joined: 2 years ago
Location: Jefferson, Oregon, USA
Region: USA & Canada
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Scott » 1 week ago

Thanks for the response!

PistolPatch - The "cone" of trub is not really a concern to me... Seems like with the cold crash that I do after fermentation, it does a very good job of getting rid of trub, and my beer is normally very clear. The "Brulosoophy" Blog has a couple of articles that seem to back up that cloudiness going into the fermenter don't really effect final clarity. http://brulosophy.com/2017/03/16/the-br ... ttle-trub/. If anything, a little more cloudy going into fermenter seemed to produce clearer beer, according to Marshall Schott's process and research.

I went to your link and gave it a read through again. Remember seeing it before (very good read!). There are a lot of older, very detailed posts on this forum that really help explain things, and explore interesting ideas...

So that said - I will just stick with the Hop Stand - which is just prolonged contact time with hops in the hop sack, and slight stirring at least at the start... I'll post a couple links that help to explain benefits, for anyone reading this that are not 100% clear. These articles were a help to me, since I have limited experience with leaving hops in the beer after flame out. Have always done immediate chilling (except once)...

Hop Stand / Whirlpool Articles:
http://byo.com/stories/issue/item/2808-hop-stands
http://www.bear-flavored.com/2013/07/th ... lpool.html

Also, found another good article on this style of beer. Will post link below for those interested.

New England IPA - Additional Article:
http://www.newschoolbeer.com/2016/03/ne ... thing.html

Mad_Scientist - thanks a bunch for your estimate on the hop additions, times to put in the BIABacus to try and estimate AA utilization after flame out. That plus the info. The thing that actually took me a bunch of time is trying to estimate salt additions to match the water they want. Found a calculator on Brewer's Friend to kind of help with that. Hoping it is correct, we have soft water here in Oregon's Willamette Valley.

If you have time, take a look at the attached BIABacus file and see if you see any problems with it... One thing - the recipe in Craft Beer & Brewing is for "5 gallons". I believe (could be wrong) that they are planning on 5.25 gallons into the fermenter. Also 72% efficiency. But when I put it in the BIABacus, for similar size brew I needed more grain, as if we are less efficient. With the BCS book which estimates 75% efficiency, we normally use a little less grain than the recipe - not more. So...something isn't right here. Suppose as long as the balance and percentages are correct we should be okay, but this is rather curious to me. Anyhow, if you see anything I'm missing, please let me know.

Probably should have posted this in Creating Own Recipes or something like that... At the time it was posted, was considering adding an extra piece of equipment, so made the post here instead. Anyhow, thanks a bunch for your input! :thumbs:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by Scott on 19 Mar 2017, 10:48, edited 1 time in total.

Post Reply

Return to “Bags, Mashers, Thermometers, Kettles etc.”

Brewers Online

Brewers browsing this forum: No members and 3 guests