Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

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Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Scott » 1 month ago

Researching brewing a New England IPA, from an article in Craft Beer & Brewing. Lots of hops are added late in this style, in the Whirlpool...along with a double dry hop (and first wort hop). I think the pros whirlpool their wort when hot or very warm, but from what I understand homebrewers that do this normally chill then whirlpool their wort.

https://beerandbrewing.com/1Sce4YbB4ooK ... style-ipas

Does anyone here whirlpool your beer...? I try to give some stirring but have never seen the cone of trub develop, and so don't really worry about it and get rid of most during cold crash. But with this brewing style, appears adding hops during whirlpool is quite important, so may need to rethink it.. :scratch:

This company has some cool gadgets to go on a drill. http://www.norcalbrewingsolutions.com/s ... nsils.html I'm not looking to get extra crud just for the fun of it, so don't want to waste time doing something extra, but want to brew this beer and have a good result.

Anyone have any input on this one...? Also, has anyone brewed this style, etc.?
Last edited by Scott on 15 Mar 2017, 21:52, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Mad_Scientist » 1 month ago

No, not whirlpooling, but hop stand. My hopping is typically using pellets and use a paint strainer bag and squeeze after the pull. I have hop "stood" for an hour once, 30 minutes a number of times and have recently gone to 15 minutes.

I once made an IPA (standard single batch) with 1.5 pounds of golden naked oats. That had the best mouth feel ever. :smoke:

Are you following this recipe?
https://beerandbrewing.com/7FW4kwQBtmoQ ... -style-ipa

I have calculated the FWH and whirlpool hop additions like so, to match the recipes IBU. 10% utilization as the max for a hop stand per a byo article. ymmv
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Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Scott » 1 month ago

Hi MS.

Yes, that's the recipe I'm looking at.

Hop Stand - may have to read more about that, vs whirlpool...

Wonder what has best performance or results...? :scratch: IBU results or hop utilization, not just IBUs, may work differently in late additions. (???)

Recently built a hop spider that puts hops in center of the pot. First use was a pain - but realized later it was more "user error"...something simple, so will try one more time before discarding the whole idea. Had some situations with large batches that my bag of hops was over-full. Figured if packed in too tight, won't get the utilization out of the hops. In hindsight another solution might have been to add a second large hop bag - both attached to the sides. My new Hop Spider - don't think it will work correctly with a whirlpool...

Surely someone on this forum has brewed New England IPAs and had them turn out correctly...
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Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Mad_Scientist » 1 month ago

I posted the question on my clubs Facebook, see what we get...

... so far the respond is...

"40 minutes isn't the rule.... the few I've done were for far less time.... right around 20 min total and the majority of the time was steeping rather than whirlpool"

"But also I don't steep/whirlpool until the temperature drops to below 180..... I don't want additional bitterness.... Just want flavor and aroma"

"I've found that adding immediately at flameout gives the hops too much time at high temp..... Didn't like the xtra bitterness added"
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Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Mad_Scientist » 1 month ago

After I pinned John C. down to the recipe in question "How would you brew this recipe?" , he said...

"I like weldworks.... I'd do it like they did! You can see they have very little boil hops.... What's there is from the first wort addition. That .6 oz whirlpool isn't too much.... nor is the the 1.35 oz at the 30 min mark. I still might let the wort cool to somewhere below 190 before starting the whirlpool"

"Had this beer at hunahpu.... It's very good"


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Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Scott » 1 month ago

Okay, thanks much MS! I have not had this beer yet, but want to. (Who is John C...? A brewer?)

Honestly have questions... So for a real "whirlpool", seems like I should get a spinning contraption to whirlpool. And if I do that, might want to get a second hop bag to attach to side and not use hop spider.

Timing is a little bit vague and fuzzy...about technique and timing, as this is different from anything I've done. Maybe I will put together a BIABacus later and post it. (Might have posted this elsewhere...so thanks for responding).
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Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Mad_Scientist » 1 month ago

John is a brewer in my club, we have a Facebook page.

The IBU's come mostly from the "whirlpool" hops. The recipe says there is 55 IBU's. This is my take on how this might by calculated.

First line is the FWH. 2ND, 3RD AND 4TH are the whirlpool ones. So my best guess it's calculated at 70 mins for FWH (60 mins. boil), then 15 mins., 9 mins. and 4 mins.. I would start the whirlpool hops at flame out, not wait for any magical temperature to be reached first, you would lose IBU's if you wait too long, imo.

It's just a guess. YMMV
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Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Mad_Scientist » 1 month ago

Scott, I wouldn't overthink it on your first attempt on this NEIPA style. Add a pump and a whirlpool arm later if you feel like it You are only talking about a few ounces after flame out. After forty minutes is up after flame out, just pull your spider (squeeze the hops if you like) and then chill (if you like).

Remember that the big breweries do the whirlpooling and the homebrewers emulate them. Rogue brewery, when making the Dead Guy chunks in 608 ozs. at boil and 480 ozs. at flame out and starts a whirlpool.


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Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Scott » 1 month ago

Don't want a pump.
Don't want a whirlpool arm...
I do want good results though... If getting a long stainless steel drill bit with a fancy propeller (and use it with my cordless drill) would truly help me make better - more flavorful beer of this style, I would do it... But I want to avoid getting too much extra crap and cluttering my clean brewing operation.

Thanks for your input MS. I do tend to overthink things sometimes. (Often, actually :idiot: )... I'll probably take your advice on this one. Use hopspider and occasionally swirl with the spoon to keep the wort moving. At least through the first 20 minutes.

Then would you chill after 40 min after flameout? Or just no chill (never done a true no-chill).

Will have to review how the BIABacus handles hop additions with whirlpool / post flame-out. Seems like I've done this once before...

Thanks again!


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Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by PistolPatch » 1 month ago

Scott wrote:
<span title="15 Mar 2017, 21:46">1 month ago</span>
Does anyone here whirlpool your beer...? I try to give some stirring but have never seen the cone of trub develop...... cool gadgets to go on a drill....
Hey Scott ;),

Short on time but noticed the above the other day and it stuck in my mind so here's some quick notes...

If you want a cone to develop with a whirlpool, there's a few key things:

1. Any obstructions on the interior of your kettle, above close to the the bottom, is going to stuff it up either completely or considerably. So, hopsock will bugger it up.
2. A cone develops by having the whirlpool "still" in the centre of the kettle and "fast" on the outside. Things you stick on a drill don't work, in my experience (and I've had several cracks), maybe because they speed the center up first and outside last and probably do it all too quickly. You will get a great whirlpool if you use a large "spoon" and stir the outside until momentum builds, just the same as you wanted to make one in a saucepan (you'd never start stirring in the centre).

NOTE. Be a good experiment that. Chuck some solids in a saucepan and try starting a whirlpool with a blender versus doing it with a gradual outside stir with a spoon.

And on whirlpool IBU's, BIABacus won't handle whirlpool hop IBU's. Some other software attempts to but, funnily enough, that same software doesn't even collect the most basic data that would be necessary for such a calculation. (Maybe check out an old ramble here)

Hope that helps a bit.

I think MS might have mentioned above somewhere to not get worried and just brew it. That's pretty great advice in this area. For a start, you'll get a great beer anyway. Secondly, you're the sort of brewer (I think) that probably takes notes and would actually learn a lot between variations in your procedure.

Will look forward to hearing how you go :thumbs:
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Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Scott » 1 month ago

Thanks for the response!

PistolPatch - The "cone" of trub is not really a concern to me... Seems like with the cold crash that I do after fermentation, it does a very good job of getting rid of trub, and my beer is normally very clear. The "Brulosoophy" Blog has a couple of articles that seem to back up that cloudiness going into the fermenter don't really effect final clarity. http://brulosophy.com/2017/03/16/the-br ... ttle-trub/. If anything, a little more cloudy going into fermenter seemed to produce clearer beer, according to Marshall Schott's process and research.

I went to your link and gave it a read through again. Remember seeing it before (very good read!). There are a lot of older, very detailed posts on this forum that really help explain things, and explore interesting ideas...

So that said - I will just stick with the Hop Stand - which is just prolonged contact time with hops in the hop sack, and slight stirring at least at the start... I'll post a couple links that help to explain benefits, for anyone reading this that are not 100% clear. These articles were a help to me, since I have limited experience with leaving hops in the beer after flame out. Have always done immediate chilling (except once)...

Hop Stand / Whirlpool Articles:
http://byo.com/stories/issue/item/2808-hop-stands
http://www.bear-flavored.com/2013/07/th ... lpool.html

Also, found another good article on this style of beer. Will post link below for those interested.

New England IPA - Additional Article:
http://www.newschoolbeer.com/2016/03/ne ... thing.html

Mad_Scientist - thanks a bunch for your estimate on the hop additions, times to put in the BIABacus to try and estimate AA utilization after flame out. That plus the info. The thing that actually took me a bunch of time is trying to estimate salt additions to match the water they want. Found a calculator on Brewer's Friend to kind of help with that. Hoping it is correct, we have soft water here in Oregon's Willamette Valley.

If you have time, take a look at the attached BIABacus file and see if you see any problems with it... One thing - the recipe in Craft Beer & Brewing is for "5 gallons". I believe (could be wrong) that they are planning on 5.25 gallons into the fermenter. Also 72% efficiency. But when I put it in the BIABacus, for similar size brew I needed more grain, as if we are less efficient. With the BCS book which estimates 75% efficiency, we normally use a little less grain than the recipe - not more. So...something isn't right here. Suppose as long as the balance and percentages are correct we should be okay, but this is rather curious to me. Anyhow, if you see anything I'm missing, please let me know.

Probably should have posted this in Creating Own Recipes or something like that... At the time it was posted, was considering adding an extra piece of equipment, so made the post here instead. Anyhow, thanks a bunch for your input! :thumbs:
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Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Mad_Scientist » 4 weeks ago

Scott - I requested information from Jeff over on HBT (PlinyTheMiddleAged). I have been following a thread of his and it turns out after PM's he has made many so far. Hope this helps you.

Richard,

For the flame out hops, I chill the wort to about 170°F. I use an immersion chiller and it drops FAST so be careful! I usually drop it to about 175-180°F and cut the water supply to the chiller. It'll coast down. Then I throw in the pellet hops loose (no bag), slap a lid on the kettle, and wait 30 minutes.

After 30 minutes, I chill to pitching temp and then whirlpool so the hops form a mound in the middle of the kettle. I siphon from the kettle to my fermenter leaving the hops behind.

Which recipe are you looking for? I'd be happy to share! I've made several and they all have been fantastic.

Jeff (PlinyTheMiddleAged)

Richard,

That recipe also was published in a BYO article recently. I'm looking forward to giving that one a try.

The key to getting great flavor and aroma from the whirlpool additions is to drop the temp prior to the additions. The hop oils are pretty volatile and will just go into the air if the temp is too high. That's why I drop to about 170°F before adding hops. Personally, I would follow the schedule in the recipe after getting the temp down.

Another important aspect of NE IPAs is dry hopping. I always add the first dry hop addition while fermentation is still active (but getting towards the end). The yeast interact (somehow) with the hops and I think this is what contributes a lot to the NE IPA haze. Plus it has the side benefit of the yeast scavenging oxygen that may be introduced while dry hopping.

Some folks say that the flaked products (oats, barley, etc) result in haze, but I've done them with 2 Row and Maris Otter as the only source of fermentables, and I had haze that never cleared. I've also done west coast IPAs that we're perfectly clear.

I'll write up my last few recipes for you and send them out when I get a chance. I have a NE Double IPA planned for this weekend.

Jeff


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Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Scott » 4 weeks ago

Hey Mad_Scientist,

Thanks a bunch for looking into this for me... Let me know if you hear anything else that could help.

Thanks,
Scott


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Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Scott » 3 weeks ago

Well after all the research into a NEIPA, I had one a couple days ago...about an hour after buying all of the supplies to make an extra large batch. And at least the one I had - almost all after flame out additions - just wasn't 100% wild about the taste. Couldn't make myself like it real well. So I'm going to change the plan... Love beers like Deschutes' Fresh Squeezed IPA, it's a tad lighter than some (6.4 ABV, 60 IBUs), and has quite a bit of late additions, but is not all late. So will restructure the IPA plans...

I am still very interested in what additions the whirlpool / hop stand will do in adding hop flavor. Have a brew coming up on Saturday, using a new malt from Central Oregon (Mecca Grade's Pelton malt, a pilsner style malt). Plan to do a FWH, a 60 minute bittering hop. The 15 minute hop addition I'm moving to 10 minute. And then after Flame Out will do a 10-Minute Hop Stand before activating the chiller. Really would be great to know what these do to bitterness...and in a perfect world would be great if the BIABacus tool could accommodate these. Likely need more testing to determine (right Pat?). ;)

Anyhow, thanks for all the help.


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Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by PistolPatch » 3 weeks ago

Great to see MS is getting you some good info :salute:
Scott wrote:
<span title="03 Apr 2017, 07:48">3 weeks ago</span>
...
I am still very interested in what additions the whirlpool / hop stand will do in adding hop flavor....Really would be great to know what these do to bitterness...and in a perfect world would be great if the BIABacus tool could accommodate these. Likely need more testing to determine (right Pat?). ;)
I wrote something here the other day that might be of help.

I think (hope) that post explains how we sometimes mistake IBU's as also meaning flavour and aroma but they don't!

So, numbers can lead us astray, even far away, when it comes to flavour and aroma. In fact...

Okay, just having a ponder on this whole thing (having a small break from sysadmin :)), and here's what I'm thinking. I've done, and a few other members here have been a party to this, quite a few side by side brews involving the same hop schedule but with immediate chilling and slow chilling on APA's/IPA's. I've even posted the results of blind taste-testing we did afterwards and you'll see that pretty much no one could tell the difference.

So, instead of chasing numbers, let's see if we can think of why.

And, here's what I'm thinking...

I have sugar with my coffee. Let's say I have one teaspoon of sugar and one teaspoon/shot of coffee in a mug. Occassionally, I might want a strong coffee so I'll make half a mug with one shot. How much sugar do I use in the half mug? Answer is one teaspoon - not a half. Why?

The extra bitterness needs to be toned down with the extra sweetness.

So, what I'm saying, is that any extra bitterness caused by late addition hops is balanced out by the extra flavour/sweetness of the hops. (This thought/theory, probably is only relevant to these APA/IPA styles.)

Does that help, make sense at all?

It's certainly made some sense to me. Until writing the post linked above and this one, I really never had a logical reason/understanding for why I never make any IBU adjustments for variations in post-boil management.

(Now to check my latest rsync/cron test. Don't ask!) :)
Pat
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Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Scott » 3 weeks ago

Hey Pat,

Yeah I realize IBUs are not the same thing as flavor and aroma... And "numbers" tell us some things but many things they do not, and like all else in life can be misleading. Trying to find a way to up the flavor and aroma in beer without getting the beer super bitter...

Found and re-reviewed a good post from Joshua last night about hop oils... Three year old post. There were some interesting thoughts in his post.

I appreciate your response. Had seen your response, and I read it again. And read through this one a couple times. You might be on to something... (?)

Realistically I should do some more experiments on this. You're saying you and your tasting panel did not see a real difference in a no chill beer vs same one chilled. So no more "flavor and aroma"? Okay. According to much of the info being written, should be able to get more flavor and aroma if do hopping at flame out and then chill immediately after short length of time (like 10 minutes, with his notes - to me seemed to hit the "sweet spot" on flavor). That's not quite the same thing you tested... Read interesting article on Jamil's site last night that dealt with this. With the brew planning on for Saturday, if I could quickly source more Hallertau / German Tradition and more of this specialty malt, it would be interesting to do a test... :scratch: Was difficult to source the hops at the start so not sure...


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Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by Scott » 3 weeks ago

Oh my goodness... What have I talked myself into...? :pray:

Experimental Brew - this coming Saturday - trying new things:
  • Mecca Grade Malt (Pelton) - boutique malter from Central Oregon using "Full Pint" barley developed at Oregon State University
  • Hallertau Tradition Hops (from Germany, aka "German Tradition")
  • Double Batch: Chill @ Flame Out vs. 10 Minutes of Hop Stand (or 10 Min. Post Transfer)
On the chill...trying to work out how to do this. Just going to use the one pot, at max level. Volume at Flame-Out (VFO) is supposed to be 37.46 Liters / 9.9 Gallons. Figure can connect hose at ball valve and transfer out about 3.5 hot gallons to my smaller kettle (with the immersion chiller in it, in operation). That will likely add 5 minutes to the process... Probably should start the "10 minutes" at the end of the transfer, so would be closer to 15 minutes ... When done and chilled, adjust original gravity to both batches, and transfer to fermenters... (Thankfully I've got a "baby" Speidel fermenter for the smaller batch, and both will just fit in my fermentation chamber for temperature control.) At 10 minutes, or 10 minutes post transfer - immediately transfer immersion chiller to the larger pot / hop stand.

I just called MoreBeer to order more "German Tradition" hops, and calling momentarily to Corvallis Brew Supply to get more Mecca Grade Malt coming... Thankfully wife works there today to pick up additional malt. Thinking I'm a "Glutton For Punishment"... :shock: Well in due time, will be able to tell what difference this 10 minute in the hop stand (then chill) will have in the beer, or not. Either way...it will make beer that I'm likely to enjoy. :party:


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Re: Whirlpooling Tool --- New England IPA Hop Additions

Post by PistolPatch » 3 weeks ago

Lol on what you've talked yousself into :). I'm not sure that Hallertau is going to be a great one to test, an American hop-driven beer would be easier.

Also, a lot of talk goes on in this area but nowhere near enough experimentation on a single recipe let alone across various styles. And, remember you'll need a few people to test even a single experiment and be using triangular testing and scoring sheets. It's a lot of work.
Scott wrote:
<span title="05 Apr 2017, 01:30">3 weeks ago</span>
You're saying you and your tasting panel did not see a real difference in a no chill beer vs same one chilled. So no more "flavor and aroma"?
Have done this test more than once but on a quick search here, only found this post. (There is another experiment where we had more tasters but short on time atm.)

In hindsight, I'd add on the tasting sheet something like:

1. Bitterness (not IBU's) 0-25: 0 = No Bitterness 25 = Extreme Bitterness
2. Flavour from Hops 0-25: 0 = No Flavour 25 = Extreme Flavour
3. Aroma from Hops 0-25: 0 = No Aroma 25 = Extreme Flavour

Something like that.

Keep up your great work mate :thumbs:
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