Clear Brewing Terminology Podcast - Basic Brewing Radio

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Clear Brewing Terminology Podcast - Basic Brewing Radio

Post by Isambard » 3 years ago

Podcast - Clear Brewing Terminology - Basic Brewing Radio

Pat has just done a podcast with James Spencer on "Proper Terminology" or what we call 'Clear Brewing Terminology (CBT)'.

Please note the Clear Brewing Terminology thread here.

Also pay particular attention to post #10 of that thread.
Last edited by Isambard on 03 Oct 2014, 21:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by BobBrews » 3 years ago

Very good show. I downloaded it and listened in a hospital waiting room. A lot better than the crap they had on the waiting room TV. Rinsing jeans in a wash machine was NOT mentioned? Pity!
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Post by Rick » 3 years ago

Pretty excited to give this a listen, and perfect timing with the discussions we've been having lately.

I'll have to cue this up and listen on my ride home from work today (rather long commute, perfect for podcasts).


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Post by HbgBill » 3 years ago

'mother good interview, Pat....
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Post by PistolPatch » 3 years ago

I have it on good authority that both James and Pat would have preferred to do the podcast with BobBrews but poor Bob has been around here so long, he could have forgotten that the terminology for EOBV-A is now VFO and that EIK is now EIB :lol:.

It's been a very long haul though to get it all right. It's an important subject that can be of real service to all brewers so I think Pat and others would really appreciate anyone who links it on their own country's home brew forums or likes it on their social media (I think that means liking it here or something?)

:peace:
Last edited by PistolPatch on 07 Oct 2014, 19:20, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by BobBrews » 3 years ago

The only terminology I remember is BIAB. That is why I don't use BIABacus or any other software. I can't remember much more than Brew In A Bag. Short memory and short .... well you know. :blush:
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
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Post by mally » 3 years ago

Finished listening this afternoon.
Quite enjoyable & easy listening (Apart from James seems to have a disturbing laugh, and Pat has a disturbing cough/throat clearing)!

Time will tell, but I hope it gets the attention it deserves.

Nice job :salute:
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Post by Pat » 3 years ago

mally wrote:Pat has a disturbing cough/throat clearing!
Okay, that is the last podcast I'm doing (without Bob at least :)). Whining from mally and only 5 likes on BBR's Facebook page to date compared to a bag of pomegranate juice getting 46 likes in day :roll:. Could it get any worse? My life's work just passed by :sad:.

...

It is interesting however that the last podcast, the BIAB Legacy podcast one I did with Bob, had a lot more comments, likes and emails. One emailer wrote that it was the best BBR podcast ever. This one seems to be a bomb. The only saving grace is that quite a few BBR podcasts don't get too many likes. Phew!

The only email we've had so far came in a few hours ago and it's reminded me again how easy and normal it is for a brewer to think that there isn't actually a problem. I'll reply to the email's questions and also see if I can gather a better idea of where the brewer is coming from. I'm hoping that will help me work out why Clear Brewing Terminology is nowhere near as exciting/revolutionary to others as it is to me.

:scratch: :think: :),
Pat
Last edited by Pat on 10 Oct 2014, 19:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by rbcon2 » 3 years ago

OK Pat, here is your slap on the back for doing a great job! I listened to the entire podcast and it was great, informative and understandable. But the English accent kept throwing me off, or was it Kiwi accent, Aussie, Bloody me I cant keep them straight!
Roger Barnett

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Post by Rick » 3 years ago

I gave it a listen. Seemed a bit clumsy through the beginning but thought it really picked up and came together by the end.

I don't think it's fair to put so much focus on a single podcast, there is so much more to the idea. So much, in fact ... verbal communication can only spread awareness.

We do have our own language for everything, but we're going to have to be fluent in all languages to help coerce new folks to make the transition.

Even though the terms mentioned are very flawed (batch size, IBU, etc .. ) the masses are still going to use them. At best, I think it's going to take a very very long time for CBT to be completely understood and appreciated.


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Post by joshua » 3 years ago

Pat, You say Tomato, I say Tomotoe, You Say Potato, I say Potatoe.

Of course, that would sound better spoken...
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Post by Pat » 3 years ago

I like Roger's reply best :lol:.

Here's my reply to the only email that has come in so far to BBR...

Thanks for passing this on James and hello Dan,

Your email is a hard one to answer. I've already thought on it for a few days and I suspect will spend more time than on the podcast in writing the below. I've been thinking on it for a few days because I was hoping that the podcast would be revolutionary but instead, I think it was a flop. I don't think I delivered the content as well as I could have and I think I should have prepared better. If I had, I would have hoped for emails saying, "That really set a light bulb off for me!" but instead I get yours :).

I’m still battling as to how to answer you well but here’s a few things at least. You wrote...
Terms like "Batch size" and "efficiency" are ambiguous terms indeed. However, I would argue that terms such as "mash efficiency" and "brewhouse efficiency" have very unambiguous mathematical definitions. Confusion around these terms is due only to laziness on the part of homebrewers who don't do their own research.

An atrocious number of ‘forum’ home brewers are lazy but the majority, especially when they start out, are not. Look at BIABrewer.info and you’ll see no laziness there. Lazy people leave that forum Smile.

I’m going to correct you now but I understand where you are coming from. Before you are too hard on yourself, remember that I have been studying this area for eight years now, almost every day, every program, and many forums and books.

Mash efficiency and brewhouse efficiency do not have unambiguous mathematical definitions. I’ll give you the mash efficiency thing as it was the term I suggested the night before BeerSmith2 was released. I had been a BeerSmith2 beta for several months but many changes/errors did not get fixed. My ‘Mash Eff’ you see on the design tab of BS was a last, desperate attempt by me, with only a few seconds to think, of making a distinction between ‘brewhouse efficiency’ and ‘mash/lauter’ efficiency. ‘Mash/Lauter would not fit in the space and I knew I had no time so there you see ‘mash eff’. It is not correct terminology though.

Mash efficiency pales into insignificance though when compared with brewhouse efficiency.

I went through this about five years ago with pro brewers asking them, “What does Brewhouse Efficiency mean to you?” None of them had any respect for the term and all of them had different answers for “brewhouse” but let’s forget that. (I did more of this on forums btw.) My first question to you is where are you getting your unambiguous definition of brewhouse efficiency from?

Let’s say you have found a good definition of brewhouse efficiency, the next question is, “Does the next program/website/article also have that same definition?” The answer is , “No.”

But. let’s forget that even! For example, in Beersmith, the program wants you to regard batch size and brewhouse efficiency as being fermentor based but...

Experienced users of BeerSmith don’t use it that way as many of the major formulas such as IBU and colour were faulted in BeerSmith1 (several still are in BeerSmith2) and the only way to correct for those faults were to set your batch size and brewhouse efficiency to ‘Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW)’ and ‘Efficiency of Ambient Wort (EAW)’.

This problem (the major formula errors) has been brought up many, many times by the non-lazy brewers.

.....

Let’s have a break and catch our breath...

Three-quarters of the podcast centred around the problem of batch size and efficiency so please don’t dismiss my attempts at fixing these. My solutions are very simple and they are needed unless you can trust that everyone is using the same program in the same way as you are.

Let’s move on...
Personally, I would suggest that the best way to communicate recipes is to give grain bills in percentages, hop additions in IBU's with the formula used, and the original gravity. People are then able to use whatever software and system that they are used to using to scale that recipe to their system. This is how the Can You Brew It podcast with Jamil Zainasheff and Tasty McDole scaled clone recipes and were able to clone quite a few commercial beers.
That won’t work unfortunately. Grain bill in percentages is fine. Original gravity would almost always be fine except if there was a dilution post-boil which happens in many extract beers. (More to write there but that is an essay in itself.)

As mentioned in the podcast, publishing the IBU’s and the formulas used is a start but is not the answer because a lot of software gets the formula wrong. (Re-listen to that bit of the podcast – towards the end from memory.)

As for Jamil and Tasty’s podcast, or even the ‘Brewing Classic Styles’ book by Jamil and John Palmer, you would need to write to them and ask them the question...

“Should you use the same amount of bittering/flavour/aroma hops in an extract recipe as you would in an all-grain recipe?”

Brewing Classic Styles will tell you, “Yes.” My experience and at least one of their podcasts I stumbled upon recently tells me, “No.”

So, you will need to ask them if their book is correct or, is it their podcast? Maybe it is them that are being lazy? Rolling on the floor laughing

...

I appreciated your question Dan. It made me stop and think as so many questions do. I hope my reply above does the same for you.

All the best,
Pat
Last edited by Pat on 12 Oct 2014, 19:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by dantheman13 » 3 years ago

Hi Pat! See, I really do lurk here. :) Here is my reply email to you:

Thank you for the reply, Pat! I admit that my level of research and history with different brewing software is a lot more limited than yours, and I agree with a lot of the points that you make. However, there are a few things that I don't find satisfactory in your response here.

I completely agree with you on the inconsistent use of the "efficiency" terms, however it seems to me that there are common understandings of the terms. I only did a little bit of research, but according to Kai Troester, there are really only two calculations for conversion and lauter efficiency (which is probably a clearer way to say "mash efficiency"). http://www.braukaiser.com/wiki/index.ph ... efinitions. Interestingly, that article is a great example of the mixing of different terms, although Kai does a great job of explaining the different usages of the terms in such a way that the reader can understand the rest of his article. But in the end, as far as "mash efficiency" goes, although different terms are used to communicate the same concept and formula, many of them use the term "mash efficiency":

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/Efficiency
http://www.howtobrew.com/section2/chapter12-5.html
http://beersmith.com/blog/2008/10/26/br ... r-brewing/ (second half of the article)

I concede that the use of the term "brewhouse efficiency" is even more inconsistently used. It seems that some sources use that term to refer to the conversion and lauter efficiency. I suspect that the wide use of BeerSmith and the article from Michael Uchima have played a role in the adoption of the term to mean the efficiency going into the fermenter. I believe Brad chose to base a lot of BeerSmith's functionality like scaling recipes on "Brewhouse Efficiency" to solve the issue of having so many variables between different brew systems. Whatever the case may be, the term has wide adoption currently, and instructions are available for homebrewers to use brewhouse efficiency in BS (http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.ph ... 579.0.html).

As far as IBU's go, I only found one tool that was really off with it's calculations. Admittedly, I didn't do extensive testing, and only tested with Tinseth. I compared four tools: the BeerSmith hop Calculator, the BIABacus tool (which is awesome by the way), the Brewer's Friend online calculator (http://www.brewersfriend.com/ibu-calculator/), and Tinseth's own JavaScript calculator (http://www.realbeer.com/hops/bcalc_js.html). BeerSmith and BIABacus calculated a couple of tests with the same exact results. The Tinseth calculator was off by a couple of decimal points, which was probably due to some rounding and to me wasn't a large enough dependency to say there is a problem using it. The biggest problem I found was with the Brewer's Friend calculator, which appears to incorrectly use pre-boil gravity instead of post-boil gravity. Thus far, I would say that errors in computer programs are unfortunate, but they are not cause to say that there is a problem with the hop formulas themselves. The hop formulas themselves may not be accurate, but we have to remember we are not talking about the accuracy of the formulas but the ability to use them as a tool to communicate recipes.

One thing to note about BeerSmith is that IBU calculations appear at first to be different in the recipe design versus it's own Hop Calculator. Brad explains what is going on here: http://www.beersmith.com/forum/index.ph ... l#msg25744. Essentially, Brad is trying to calculate more accurate hop utilization due to some systems having more loss to chilling and trub. While this does make things more confusing when transferring recipes, it doesn't necessarily mean that the calculations are wrong.

BeerSmith is trying to force brewers to think "the BeerSmith" way, this is true. However, the agenda here is that if brewer A has his system set up correctly in BeerSmith and shares his recipes with Brewer B who also has his system set up correctly in BeerSmith, the two recipes should come out more the same than if the recipes were shared another way. This sort of thing gives an advantage between BeerSmith users, but more difficulty for those who aren't. I can see both arguments here, and I don't think either one is necessarily right or wrong.

As far as saying that using IBU percentages for wort that is topped up is not going to work, the same can be said about using any measurement of hops. It's a problem that I suggest should be resolved by the brewer and/or his brewing software, and perhaps also through trial and error. I don't see how any system can fix this problem when it comes to converting all grain recipes to those that use top up water.

To sum up, I am in agreement that the terms used are confusing as hell. New all grain brewers have a lot of wrap their heads around, and I certainly had difficulty figuring it out for a while. However, I would suggest that certain terms like "mash efficiency" and "brewhouse efficiency" are used widely enough that they should be adopted instead of creating an entirely new set of terminology.

On another subject, the BIABrewer.info site really helped me learn how to brew. I used the old calculator for a while for my BIAB brews. Despite my arguments here, the tools and information you guys offer are amazing.

Cheers,
Dan

--------------------------

What I am essentially saying is that the ambiguity of these terms is being overstated. I argue that there is a common understanding of what "mash efficiency", "brewhouse efficiency", and even "batch size" mean. They are not just backed by internet articles though, but by books as well. For example, from "Brewing Better Beer" by Gordon Strong (pg 92): "Your recipes should be based on the final boil volume, not the final finished beer volume. Scale your recipes appropriately to get the finished beer volume you desire." I am sure there are other references as well, but practicality also dictates that this is what is meant by "batch size" once we start thinking about triple dry hopped IPA's that lose 4 liters of beer to fermenter trub. While I appreciate the preciseness of this proposed terminology, it seems like overkill to me. Remembering all of those acronyms is not going to be easy (who is lazy now?).

Cheers,
Dan
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Post by Pat » 3 years ago

:P Didn't realise it was you Dan :P Nice to hear from you :salute:.

I've just spent a few hours on your correspondence (including the one you posted above) and a few others. I have given you some home-work as well :).

Let me know if those replies made sense.

All the best,
Pat
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Post by dantheman13 » 3 years ago

Oh man, I am totally confused now. Where is the Google Plus thread? :)

Thanks,
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Post by Pat » 3 years ago

You're confused? :lol:

I've been working very long (and hot) hours on my 'paying' job this week and I come home to find all these emails from James saying that so and so has sent me this or posted here or there. I have done my best to keep up and have written very considered replies but they are vry much stealing time form this forum especially when you see that some of the correspondents haven't listened carefully to the podcast. Not you I hope!!!!

The Google plus thread is here. Let me know if it is not visible. It should be visible to anyone in that 'circle' I would imagine so join it. I had to.

I can't stand Social Media. How many things are we meant to keep a track of?

:roll:
Pat
Last edited by Pat on 15 Oct 2014, 19:46, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by shetc » 3 years ago

Listened to the podcast this morning, which I found very informative. Planning to go back and re-read the Clear Brewing Terminology thread.


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Post by arkgray » 2 years ago

I thought the podcast was useful. Being a new brewer I think the language definitely would help brewers communicate. Defining terms is always the first thing one needs to do. Learning all of the new terminology and nuances is nearly impossible since like you said everyone does something different. I need to go back and listen to the show. I think this was the first BBR that I listened to and I've still tuned back in. I do hope that James will have you on in the future and some more discussion can take place on the terms you have worked on.

I did also enjoy the BIAB Legacy show. I listened to it again this morning and got even more out of it.

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