BIAB in stainless carboy with narrow mouth?

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BIAB in stainless carboy with narrow mouth?

Post by a1lawng » 3 years ago

Hey Everyone,

My first time posting here, so be gentle...

Do any of you have experience with the stainless carboys from Deep Wood? I don't currently have a big enough kettle for biab and I was thinking of using the 13 gallon version they offer for my biab kettle, no-chill container, and fermenter. Crazy awesome to think I can do all that in one vessel. The only thing that's holding me back is that, even though the vessel is 14+" wide, the mouth is only 7". Any thoughts on being able to use this product for biab? Seems like if I use a standard diameter bag it will be really hard to get out of the vessel with all the wet grain in it. And if I use a narrow (7-8") bag the grain won't be free to spread out in the bag.

Any creative thoughts or confirmations? Thanks.
Last edited by a1lawng on 18 Jan 2014, 08:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by BobBrews » 3 years ago

a1lawng,

It really looks nice, but it would be banged around and dinged up quickly. Who is going to see it anyway? It just seems a bit pricey to me? I use a keg (15.5 gallon) that cost about $35(US) for the boil and a $18 (bought two to save on shipping) no-chill container. It works well for me but I must admit that I am a cheapskate! I am brewing for taste and to save money. Somehow I don't think that I have saved any money but "it tastes great!"
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Post by no-more-peroni » 3 years ago

They look nice and I am glad to hear they may work as here in Italy they are really cheap, I had not thought of using one. A 50 liter (13 US Gallons) one costs only €40 ($54) You can see them here on ebay http://r.ebay.com/XWDrmd. I read the article this morning before work and have been hoping that there would be a good answer this evening.

I am not sure that I could use it as a no chill container as it would collapse with a vacuum, I think ? However they are tapped for a tap about 2 inches from the bottom so should be easy to transfer to a cube or something.
Last edited by no-more-peroni on 18 Jan 2014, 20:59, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by BobBrews » 3 years ago

no-more-peroni
I am not sure that I could use it as a no chill container as it would collapse with a vacuum, I think ? However they are tapped for a tap about 2 inches from the bottom so should be easy to transfer to a cube or something.
The no chill containers are thick walled and very sturdy. They do slightly "dent?" But it depends on the type of container you use? They must be food and temperature safe also.

This is a what I use to no chill. http://www.usplastic.com/catalog/item.a ... &catid=459
Last edited by BobBrews on 18 Jan 2014, 21:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by no-more-peroni » 3 years ago

Hi Bob,

Thanks for the fast reply, I thought that the stainless steel may not be suitable, I shall have a hunt here in Italy for something similar to the containers you use.

Cheers


Graham


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Post by a1lawng » 3 years ago

I just don't like to use plastic for anything. I use stainless and glass for every part of the brewing and serving process. Even the lines coming up to my taps from the fridge in the basement are stainless. It's more expensive and sometimes more work, but it's worth it to me in the end. I'm kind of a nut about the possibility of chemicals leaching into anything I consume, so I don't even own any plastic cups or anything at home.
no-more-peroni wrote:They look nice and I am glad to hear they may work as here in Italy they are really cheap, I had not thought of using one. A 50 liter (13 US Gallons) one costs only €40 ($54) You can see them here on ebay http://r.ebay.com/XWDrmd. I read the article this morning before work and have been hoping that there would be a good answer this evening.

I am not sure that I could use it as a no chill container as it would collapse with a vacuum, I think ? However they are tapped for a tap about 2 inches from the bottom so should be easy to transfer to a cube or something.
I can't believe how much cheaper these are via the link you sent. I wonder why. I'm going to check if I can purchase them from that seller while I'm here in the U.S. Also, the vessel I sent a link to has a hole in the top for a blow-off tube during fermentation, so you could rig something up using that to take care of the potential vacuum/collapsing issue.
Last edited by a1lawng on 19 Jan 2014, 02:08, edited 1 time in total.


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Post by no-more-peroni » 3 years ago

They are cheap here because where I live, in Puglia, every house has two or three. I have three, two thirteen gallon ones in the garage full of our olive oil from this year and last year and a dinky 1 gallon one in the kitchen for cooking etc. There are three of us at home and we use about a quart a week, so none coming free soon. I am seriously considering a 4 or 5 gallon one to brew in as they are cheaper than a pot here. Also the big gas burners are cheaper here than when I lived in the UK. I saw a large triple tap one today for $25 in the store. (We use these for cooking and sterilizing jars of tomatoes in the summer, and again everyone does it, tradition and all that.)


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Post by a1lawng » 3 years ago

Sounds like a wonderful place to live.


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Post by a1lawng » 3 years ago

BobBrews wrote:I use a keg (15.5 gallon) that cost about $35(US) for the boil
Having trouble finding a used keg in the Boston area. Besides, the beauty of the stainless carboy I'm talking about is that I can brew, no-chill, and ferment all in one vessel. My only concern is the narrow (7") mouth on it. Any thoughts on that? I've never done biab but it seems like a 7" mouth might be a problem.
Last edited by a1lawng on 19 Jan 2014, 06:39, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by BobBrews » 3 years ago

a1lawng,

Well, when you pull any BIAB bag it will expand with the water and the weight of it. If you sewed a longer thinner bag it might fit like a sausage in a bun. But how would you mix or stir it?

Buy a keg of beer and keep the keg when empty? Maybe not the most honest way, but it works. Or just tell the beer outlet manager that you lost a wager on a football game and it was for a keg. Your opponent didn't say full or not so this is a joke on him. You will just have to pay for the return value of the empty keg? Just say you want a new clean keg because you are going to wrap it up as a present? Not the most honest way but again, it works! :smoke:

Desperate times! Desperate people. I won't tell anybody :whistle:
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV

Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

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Post by PistolPatch » 3 years ago

a1lawng wrote:...Besides, the beauty of the stainless carboy I'm talking about is that I can brew, no-chill, and ferment all in one vessel. My only concern is the narrow (7") mouth on it. Any thoughts on that? I've never done biab but it seems like a 7" mouth might be a problem.
allawng, the mouth will be a problem unfortunately. You really aren't going to be able to pull the bag from that so it really isn't going to work sorry. There's also other things that are preferable in a kettle such as a thick base.

Also, from what I am reading above, you are talking about not doing any transfers. In other words, you aren't going to buy two or three of these, only one and just boil the wort, chill it and ferment it in the one vessel. There have been threads on this here before on this and one guy I think did it in one vessel. It's definitely far from best practice though. Certain styles you might get away with and certain palates might find the resulting beer absolutely fine but you are definitely talking a high risk operation here.

If you really wanted to do the whole thing in one vessel, you'd need a stainless steel conical fermenter fitted with an electric element. Conical fermentors though are very impractical for home brewers for many reasons.

Cheers,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 19 Jan 2014, 23:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by a1lawng » 3 years ago

PistolPatch wrote:
a1lawng wrote:...you are talking about not doing any transfers. In other words, you aren't going to buy two or three of these, only one and just boil the wort, chill it and ferment it in the one vessel. There have been threads on this here before on this and one guy I think did it in one vessel. It's definitely far from best practice though. Certain styles you might get away with and certain palates might find the resulting beer absolutely fine but you are definitely talking a high risk operation here.
Thanks for the reply, PP. Could you help me understand the risk involved? I'm sure I'm being naive, but it seems like there isn't much difference in doing it all in a single vessel vs. boiling in one vessel and simply pouring it into a second. Is it because there might be too much trub left after the boil?
Last edited by a1lawng on 20 Jan 2014, 00:15, edited 1 time in total.


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Post by a1lawng » 3 years ago

BobBrews wrote:Well, when you pull any BIAB bag it will expand with the water and the weight of it. If you sewed a longer thinner bag it might fit like a sausage in a bun. But how would you mix or stir it?
That's what I've been imagining, so I guess that helps with my decision to not use the stainless carboy for biab. I'll keep looking for a kettle or keggle.
BobBrews wrote:Buy a keg of beer and keep the keg when empty? Maybe not the most honest way, but it works. Or just tell the beer outlet manager that you lost a wager on a football game and it was for a keg. Your opponent didn't say full or not so this is a joke on him. You will just have to pay for the return value of the empty keg? Just say you want a new clean keg because you are going to wrap it up as a present? Not the most honest way but again, it works! :smoke:

Desperate times! Desperate people. I won't tell anybody :whistle:
Creative plan, but I'd really prefer to take the high road in finding a keg. I'll probably start calling some local breweries to find an old keg or maybe buy a 20 gallon kettle so I can do double batches with biab...that's just much more of an investment. I'm sure once I go biab I'll never turn back, though, so I should just pull the trigger on the kettle purchase. :)
Last edited by a1lawng on 20 Jan 2014, 00:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by BobBrews » 3 years ago

Creative plan, but I'd really prefer to take the high road in finding a keg. I'll probably start calling some local breweries to find an old keg or maybe buy a 20 gallon kettle so I can do double batches with biab...that's just much more of an investment. I'm sure once I go biab I'll never turn back, though, so I should just pull the trigger on the kettle purchase.
My Keggle (keg/kettle) is 15.5 gallons which is enough room for a 10 gallon/38 liter batch. But in reality I have only brewed a few times a batch of over 5 gallons. I like the variety of the 5 gallon / 19 liter batches. The extra room is nice for no boil overs and a chance to brew bigger brews. But big grain / big brew BIAB Bags are heavy and hard to work with so I don't do it.
Last edited by BobBrews on 20 Jan 2014, 00:55, edited 1 time in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV

Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

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Post by a1lawng » 3 years ago

BobBrews wrote:
Creative plan, but I'd really prefer to take the high road in finding a keg. I'll probably start calling some local breweries to find an old keg or maybe buy a 20 gallon kettle so I can do double batches with biab...that's just much more of an investment. I'm sure once I go biab I'll never turn back, though, so I should just pull the trigger on the kettle purchase.
My Keggle (keg/kettle) is 15.5 gallons which is enough room for a 10 gallon/38 liter batch. But in reality I have only brewed a few times a batch of over 5 gallons. I like the variety of the 5 gallon / 19 liter batches. The extra room is nice for no boil overs and a chance to brew bigger brews. But big grain / big brew BIAB Bags are heavy and hard to work with so I don't do it.
Were you able to do a full volume mash? Any boil-over problems?
Last edited by a1lawng on 20 Jan 2014, 02:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Post by BobBrews » 3 years ago

Were you able to do a full volume mash? Any boil-over problems?
Yes I have enough room for a full volume batch. I use Fermcap to keep the foam from boiling over. You still have to watch out and be careful but Fermcap breaks up the surface tension and limits bubble formation. But again, I just do 5 gallon boils 97%? of the time so I have lots of room for violent boiling! :shock:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/shop/fermcap-s-1-oz.html :love:
An anti-foam agent that can be used during fermentation to eliminate messy blowoff. Can also be added during the boil to reduce the risk of boilovers.
Last edited by BobBrews on 20 Jan 2014, 02:48, edited 1 time in total.
tap 1 Raspberry wine
tap 2 Bourbon Barrel Porter
tap 3 Czech Pilsner
tap 4 Triple IPA 11% ABV

Pipeline: Mulled Cider 10% ABV

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Post by a1lawng » 3 years ago

Cool. Thanks for the advice. I think I found a keg today. Just a 45 minute drive to pick it up tomorrow and I'll have a new toy.


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Post by PistolPatch » 3 years ago

a1lawng wrote:Thanks for the reply, PP. Could you help me understand the risk involved? I'm sure I'm being naive, but it seems like there isn't much difference in doing it all in a single vessel vs. boiling in one vessel and simply pouring it into a second. Is it because there might be too much trub left after the boil?
Sorry about the slow reply allawng. Yes, trub is one factor that could be a problem is some beer styles. The same goes with no-chilling. For example, in one experiment, some brewers noticed a vegetable type flavour in a no-chilled beer. There could have been other reasons for that flavour. I both chill and no-chill and have never had a problem with no-chilling. I have also chilled in the kettle with no problem a few beer styles.

When I stop and think about it, I really don't have a serious problem with you trying this method, certainly not as much as my earlier post would indicate. That is providing that you understand that the combination of additional trub and no-chilling may cause you problems. If it does cause problems, it may only occur in certain styles. As long as you are aware that it is not a tried and tested method then why not give it a go?

;)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 22 Jan 2014, 16:16, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by Kahless » 3 years ago

Is the little screw piece on the front of those Deep Wood carboys a fitting for a tap?
I wonder if you could attach a racking cane inside to the base, a tap on the front, and just syphon off the trub just before/during early fermentation?
Some irish moss/whirfloc might help it collect better (although if it was me i'd cool to shock the cold break out).
You could even get rid of trub after the first day of fermentation, like double dropping only you drop the trub instead of the beer. It wouldn't clear everything (not like a conical) but it if you go for those carboys it might be just well enough to do everything one vessel; BIAF! (brew in a fermenter - that name's not going to catch on, I can tell!)


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Post by a1lawng » 3 years ago

Kahless wrote:Is the little screw piece on the front of those Deep Wood carboys a fitting for a tap?
I ended up finding one cheaper on Amazon: Italian Made Stainless Steel Fusti Container ...I purchased the 50L (13 gallons) version for $163 including tax (free Prime shipping). They're currently on backorder but are supposed to be available again in the beginning of March (I ended up having to send mine back because of a big shipping dent so I'm waiting for a replacement).

It uses standard 1/2" NPT threads on the plug at the base. So a nipple fits in there just fine and you can then attach a ball valve or whatever. I just checked Deep Wood's version and it also shows a 1/2" NPT port when you scroll down to the bottom.
Last edited by a1lawng on 13 Feb 2014, 22:30, edited 1 time in total.


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Post by PistolPatch » 3 years ago

Kahless wrote:I wonder if you could attach a racking cane inside to the base, a tap on the front, and just syphon off the trub just before/during early fermentation?
Kahless, I read this and thought, "What a clever idea!" Unfortunately, a bit later, as happens with so many food ideas, I found a bit of a hole :dunno:. A bit like a vacuum cleaner uses air flow to suck up dust, the syphon needs wort flow to suck up the trub so you'd be having to move the syphon all around the bottom of the kettle and be wasting a lot of nice wort as well. Definitely like the way you are thinking though :salute:.
a1lawng wrote:I ended up finding one cheaper on Amazon: Italian Made Stainless Steel Fusti Container
Nice looking bit of equipment A1. Did we resolve the problem though of pulling the bag through the narrow mouth or are you just using this as a fermentor?
Last edited by PistolPatch on 14 Feb 2014, 22:50, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by a1lawng » 3 years ago

PistolPatch wrote:Nice looking bit of equipment A1. Did we resolve the problem though of pulling the bag through the narrow mouth or are you just using this as a fermentor?
I've decided to just use it as a fermenter and use a keggle I'm pulling together for my mash/boil vessel. That means it's an expensive fermenter but it should last me forever and it's way easier to clean than a glass carboy. Plus I'm planing to add a ball valve for easy transfer to a keg.
Last edited by a1lawng on 14 Feb 2014, 23:21, edited 1 time in total.


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Post by PistolPatch » 3 years ago

Okay, I have a few questions here and a lot to write...

My first question is what is the lid? Why I am asking this is because being able to put a bung in the lid will become important in the future. For example, I have a bung that works as an airlock, a thermo-well and a transfer point. These are important/valuable things that I've never written about here on BIABrewer.info.

Secondly, the picture shows a weld seam. THIS IS MY BIGGEST WORRY!!!! You see that weld seam just below the handles and right at the bottom? If those welds are not ground flat and polished to a shime (as they are on Corny kegs) on the inside, you might as well throw this fermentor straight in the bin.

I bought 8 brand new short, fat, kegs (at great expense), seven years ago because they would fit in my fridge perfectly. Brand new kegs. What could go wrong? It took me a few years to track it down and a telescopic mirror but the welds on the inside were not polished flat. Basically, no matter how clean a brewer I was, there is no way you can sanitise those welds. In fact, they are the perfect place for the greatest brewing nasties.

Be very careful as those kegs are being more and more widely sold. If you look inside a proper corny keg, you will see the inside is perfectly smooth.
Any vessel you use as a keg or fermentor must have an inside that is perfectly smooth. Do not buy anything else.
A1, from the pics, it looks like that vessel already comes with a tap? Check that out as well as the weld thing above.

I'll write another thread on ball-valve issues now so keep your eye out for that. Sometimes they look like they will save you time but often they can cost you dearly.

I hope your vessel above has a smooth inside. I certainly don't like being the bearer of bad news or having to spend so much of my time writing the above but I would hate to see you going down unfortunate and expensive paths that I have already trod.

;)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 15 Feb 2014, 00:26, edited 1 time in total.
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