First Maxi Biab - Please have a look!

Any method that is not a 'full-volume' mash. Usually, but not always, requires more than a single vessel or heat source. Includes traditional, three-vessel brewing.

Topic author
Tarmac
Draft
Draft
Posts: 32
Joined: 5 years ago
Location: Bath, UK
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

First Maxi Biab - Please have a look!

Post by Tarmac » 5 years ago

My grain finally showed up yesterday so I'm planning this one for the weekend.
Got a bit of a shock when I saw just how big a bag of 5kg of grain is! Made me wonder if my pot will hold it :interesting:

Could someone have a look at this and see if I've done everything properly?
Cheers :)
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


PistolPatch
Gold
Gold
Australia
Posts: 5284
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Region: Oceania
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Post by PistolPatch » 5 years ago

I haven't had a look at the Maxi-BIAB calculator for a while sorry Tarmac. You could try PM'ing stux who wrote the above version or Lambert who knows how to drive it.

I had a quick look and I think that might be an early version as some things in it don't seem to be adding up. For example, not sure why the Packaged Volume in cell B63 on the Maxi-BIAB page is not agreeing with the BrewLength on the Volumes sheet (16.7 L versus 23 L). These should agree.

There are several more important practical worries here though. The main one is that we are asking for too much beer from such a small pot - 15.7 L.

Here's the problems that cause this...

Practical Liquor to Grain Mashing Ratios.

In full-volume BIABing, we might use around 7 to 8 litres of water to mash a kilo of grain on a normal gravity brew.

In traditional brewing, 3.5 litres per kilo might be used (1.25 quarts per pound). On the Maxi-BIAB sheet it says to mash in your 5 kgs of grain with 10.31 L of water. This is about double the traditional mash thickness and will cause you lots of problems. You might think you will end up with just a very concentrated wort but unfortunately at such a low liquor to grist ratio, things just don't work. So instead of your expected initial mash gravity of 1.123, you could end up with only about 1.060 believe it or not.

So, firstly, you need to get more water in contact with the grain during the initial mash. In your pot, you won't be able to do this.

A practical safe limit to your initial mash in your kettle might be say 3 kg of grain. So 3 kgs of grain plus 10.5 L of water.

Next problem...

Where will you fit the Sparge Water?

One you have mashed the above and drain the bag, you'd end up with about 12.5 L of wort in your kettle. There's not much room left to add any sparge runnings in. There's only really a few ways to get around this and they aren't very practical. We could reduce the amount of water you used above but, as mentioned, this can get unpredictable. You could also increase your boil time to try and boil off some water and add your sparged liquor in during the boil. Once again, pretty unpredictable.

The only really practical solution is to do a very small sparge. This limitation of mash and sparge water that can be used leads to the following...

Far Lower Efficiency

The lower the amount of water we have in contact with the grain during the mash and sparge means lower efficiency. More sugar stays behind in the grain. So, we get into a catch 22 situation. We need more grain and then we need more water!

Up to a point, this is okay but...

Any Dilutions After the Boil Begins Must Be Limited

You'll see on the Maxi-BIAB sheet that you'd be diluting 8.3 L of wort with 10 L of water. This is too much even if by some miracle you did achieve the high initial gravities you need. A general rule is that you should not dilute into fermentor volumes by more than 30%. We are going about 115% :P.

What I Reckon...

I think make things as easy as possible on your first brews. Either halve your grain bill and do two brews one after the other (you will still have to sparge and dilute though) or buy a second pot and stagger the mash and boil (once again, you'll still need to sparge and dilute).

Maxi-BIAB can be a useful technique if used within limits. We have warnings for this built into the next site calculator (the BIABacus ) which should let you know when you are asking too much from your equipment. In this case, we are.

Your grain will keep well cool and dry so there is no need to brew immediately Tarmac. Much more enjoyable if we can get you started with a good brew day plan first and I'm sure we can do that. It's just going to mean a longer but more relaxed brew day ;).

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 02 Oct 2012, 20:08, edited 2 times in total.
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!


Topic author
Tarmac
Draft
Draft
Posts: 32
Joined: 5 years ago
Location: Bath, UK
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Tarmac » 5 years ago

Wow! thanks for such a comprehensive reply! :)
I'll definitely cut down the size of the brew after what you've said - maybe a half size trial version.

Look forward to seeing this Biabacus - the calculator made my brain hurt!


Topic author
Tarmac
Draft
Draft
Posts: 32
Joined: 5 years ago
Location: Bath, UK
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Tarmac » 5 years ago

Right, so original recipe was as follows:

23 litre brew
4.7kg Maris Otter
100 grams Wheat

40grams East Kent Goldings 90 mins
30grams East Kent Goldings 10 mins

I've put it through Beer Alchemy app for a 15 litre brew it gives:

3.2kg Maris Otter
72 grams Wheat Malt

41 grams EKG (26.6 IBU) 90 mins
24 grams EKG (5.2 INU) 10 mins

Does this look more reasonable?


PistolPatch
Gold
Gold
Australia
Posts: 5284
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Region: Oceania
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Post by PistolPatch » 5 years ago

Good stuff Tarmac,

Do you have a direct link to the original recipe? I just want to see if we can get some more info on the end of boil volume of the original recipe and the AA%'s of the hops used. This will save us having to make some possibly wild assumptions.

By "23 litre brew", the original brewer could mean anything from the end of boil volume through to volume into packaging. I'd like to see if I can check this more thoroughly. The hops look a bit odd. I am assuming that the original brewer had EKG with a very low AA% or, Beer Alchemy has a very low default AA for EKG. It would be nice to see if we can check this, otherwise we'll be flying pretty blind on the hop side of things.

:peace:
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!


Topic author
Tarmac
Draft
Draft
Posts: 32
Joined: 5 years ago
Location: Bath, UK
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Tarmac » 5 years ago

Unfortunately I've only got this link to work off: http://www.jimsbeerkit.co.uk/forum/view ... =5&t=15946
Bath Ales are fairly tight lipped about their recipes sadly :(

I'm thinking the 23 litres would be the volume in the fermenting bucket?

The AA on the EKG I've got at home is only 5.5%


PistolPatch
Gold
Gold
Australia
Posts: 5284
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Region: Oceania
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Post by PistolPatch » 5 years ago

That's no problems Tarmac - we'll make beer ;).

Recipes found on many internet sites are often impossible to scale or, at best, very hard to decipher for a number of reasons. "Brewing Classic Styles" is a great book to get on your shelf as it does provide the info needed to copy the recipes well and can act as a great check on any recipe you find on the net. On your next brew, maybe post what you want to brew and we might be able to come up with a good recipe before you go shopping. (This is nothing to worry about though now, this recipe will still turn out great.)

I won't explain much of what I've done or why I've done it below as the main thing for this brew is to get it under way and basically aim to get your volumes within the ball park. Basically though, I'm assuming you'll do two brews one after the other using half of your 4.8 kgs of grain on each brew.

Here's the calculator file....
The Calculator - Tarmac.xls
As The Calculator doesn't deal with Maxi-BIAB, we need to hold back a bit of water in the mash. Here's what I'd do...

1. Instead of putting 16.81 L into the mash, hold back 4 L.
2. Use that 4 L to sparge the bag of grain after you have mashed it for 90 minutes.
3. Add what you collect from this sparge into the kettle as soon as you can. (You should be able to get most of it in before the boil starts. The rest you should be able to slip in once the boil settles down.

Note that I have changed the bittering hops to a 75 minute addition. This will allow the boil to settle before you add hops. Adding them at the boil start with such a full pot will just cause a boil-over.

Don't be surprised if you end up with more beer than is estimated here. You might get better efficiency than I have estimated for example. If so, you can dilute once it is in the fermentor. Also, you might get less trub than predicted which once again, will give you more beer.

Finally, this is your first ag and you have to do two brews in one day so start earlier rather than later. Weigh everything out the night before and you should have a pretty relaxing day.

Let me know what bits above don't make sense :peace:,
PP
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 03 Oct 2012, 20:48, edited 2 times in total.
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!


Topic author
Tarmac
Draft
Draft
Posts: 32
Joined: 5 years ago
Location: Bath, UK
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Tarmac » 5 years ago

Bl00dy legend! :thumbs:
I'll get this on as soon as I can and check out that book too!
Thanks Pistolpatch :)

User avatar

Yeasty
Gold
Gold
Great Britain
Posts: 1363
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Bolton Lancs UK
Region: Europe
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Post by Yeasty » 5 years ago

Hi Tarmac

on the subject of books check out "Brew your own British Real Ale" by Graham Wheeler. all the recipe's are scallable.
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"


Jeltz
Draft
Draft
Posts: 72
Joined: 5 years ago
Location: Radstock Nr Bath, South West UK
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Jeltz » 5 years ago

Just had a pint of Gem, it was great :thumbs:

If your clone comes out close I would be certain to have a go myself.

I was looking at this the other day
http://www.hopandgrain.com/recipeSearch ... Ales%20Gem
Regards

Nic


Topic author
Tarmac
Draft
Draft
Posts: 32
Joined: 5 years ago
Location: Bath, UK
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Tarmac » 5 years ago

Thanks Yeasty - I'll start drawing up my Christmas list! :)

Hey Jeltz! A fellow brewer in the same area - awesome! If it comes out alright you're welcome to a bottle. Yes I've seen that recipe too but thought I'd try a simplified version first. I may try a scaled Summer Lightning or Proper Job IPA clone if this goes well.

If you get a chance to try a pint of Blindmans Brewery's Icarus go I highly recommend it if you like a drop of Gem.


Jeltz
Draft
Draft
Posts: 72
Joined: 5 years ago
Location: Radstock Nr Bath, South West UK
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Jeltz » 5 years ago

I guessed you would be local to me, small place innit this interweb.

Good luck with it and thanks for the offer of a bottle! I may well take you up on that!!

I'll keep an eye open for Blindmans (pun intended) and I might also try the Butcombe's clone on that same site.
Regards

Nic


Topic author
Tarmac
Draft
Draft
Posts: 32
Joined: 5 years ago
Location: Bath, UK
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Tarmac » 5 years ago

Went to the Butcombe open day last weekend - was very impressive.

As PistolPatch was so good to convert my last recipe I'm hoping the attached file makes sense(if I follow the same procedure).

If it makes sense then hopefully I've worked out how to scale recipes to my equipment :pray:

I should say this is a St.Austell Proper Job 'clone'...ish... recipe is as follows:

Pale Malt 92.7%
Munich Malt 5.0%
Light Crystal 2.3%

Chinook 23.2IBU 90min
Willamette 6.6IBU 15min
Willamette 4.0IBU 5min
Willamette 0.9IBU 1min
Cascade 30g 8.0% 20min at 80C

Wyeast 1275
Linky: http://www.jimsbeerkit.com/forum/viewto ... =5&t=27597

I'll be using Nottingham yeast as that's all I've got at the moment. It should make a nice hoppy IPA.
Results of all brweing experiments will be posted and I'll try to be a good boy and fill in some actuals too.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


PistolPatch
Gold
Gold
Australia
Posts: 5284
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Region: Oceania
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Post by PistolPatch » 5 years ago

Great post Tarmac :thumbs:,

Whilst I haven't tasted that beer, I have had a look at your file and everything looks excellent to me. All that any other brewer should need to do now is change the 'Brew Length' and 'Kettle Diameter' on the Volumes sheet to scale the recipe to suit their own equipment. Nice one ;).

:thumbs:
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!


Topic author
Tarmac
Draft
Draft
Posts: 32
Joined: 5 years ago
Location: Bath, UK
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Tarmac » 5 years ago

First brew just cooling down. :) I'm doing the first recipe. Might do the other one on the weekend.

Had one slight boil over when I had to pop out for five minutes (sods law) and the kitchen got a tad damp with condensation but it all went smoothly apart from that.

I've noted all the gravity readings and volumes so tomorrow I'll update the excel sheet and upload it.


Jeltz
Draft
Draft
Posts: 72
Joined: 5 years ago
Location: Radstock Nr Bath, South West UK
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Jeltz » 5 years ago

:thumbs: Good going! :thumbs:
Regards

Nic


Topic author
Tarmac
Draft
Draft
Posts: 32
Joined: 5 years ago
Location: Bath, UK
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Tarmac » 5 years ago

So... it is done! My main objective of this brew was not to hit any targets - just to make beer and record what happens! :thumbs:

Started heating the water up at 5.30pm and finally pitched yeast about midnight zzzzzzzzzzzzz knackered. :sleep:

I took loads of readings and have put them in the actuals pages of the attached calculator. All of whcih makes no sense to me right now :sleep:

Hardly had any trub which was nice and the whole process would've been a lot smoother if SWMBO would've shut up for ten mintues :whistle:

I pitched with rehydrated Nottingham yeast and there's a good krausen going this morning so - whoop! :party:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


Topic author
Tarmac
Draft
Draft
Posts: 32
Joined: 5 years ago
Location: Bath, UK
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Tarmac » 5 years ago

Woken up a bit now and realised I missed a decimal point in the gravity readings which was throwing off the efficiency readings.
Here ya go... may be right :scratch:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.


PistolPatch
Gold
Gold
Australia
Posts: 5284
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Region: Oceania
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Post by PistolPatch » 5 years ago

Good on you Tarmac :salute:,

Keep that Notty cool - it can be a wild one :argh:.

Nice work on taking the measurements especially with Mrs Tarmac being so unhelpful :lol:. The Calculator isn't set up for maxi-BIAB so interpreting the figures can be a little hard. What I'm assuming is that you held back that 4 L we talked about. What I'm wondering though is did that 4 L ever go back in? If not, that would explain all the volumes being too low and the gravities being too high.

Another thing that the layout of The Calculator doesn't allow is a taking of an end of boil gravity reading and an into the fermenter (OG) reading. Unless you dilute or add DME, these should be the same and so can act as a great double-check. (I never make a dilution based on just one measurement).

If you reckon you forgot to add that 4 L in during the brew, I'd be tempted to boil up about 2 L tap water, cool it down and then top up the fermentor with it as soon as you can. I think the consistency of high gravity readings and low volume would warrant this.

Good stuff and thanks again for the updates ;),
PP
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!


Topic author
Tarmac
Draft
Draft
Posts: 32
Joined: 5 years ago
Location: Bath, UK
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Tarmac » 5 years ago

Hey PP. Yes I did take out the 4 litres but I did top up the mash a bit with it and then did a sparge with the rest.

As it was my first biab I really didn't know just how the boil was going to react so wanted to play it safe. Now I know how vigorous it can be I won't be so shy with adding more water/sparging.

Already planning the next one... and the next one :yum:


Topic author
Tarmac
Draft
Draft
Posts: 32
Joined: 5 years ago
Location: Bath, UK
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Tarmac » 5 years ago

Just tried a shot out of the fv. And that's it.... I'm converted! :yum: I can only imagine what it will taste like when it's fully conditioned.
I'll make kits for parties but for my own private stash it is BIAB aaaaaaaall the way.

The smell and flavour - amazing. So close to what I'm trying to replicate it's uncanny.
Must buy bigger pot, must make more beer!
Thanks so much for all the help PP! :thumbs:


PistolPatch
Gold
Gold
Australia
Posts: 5284
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Perth, Western Australia
Region: Oceania
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Post by PistolPatch » 5 years ago

That's great news Tarmac :party:.

Will look forward to hearing how it tastes carbed up and to seeing how your next brews go.

Good on you :drink:.
If you have found the above or anything else of value on BIABrewer.info, consider supporting us by getting some BIPs!


Topic author
Tarmac
Draft
Draft
Posts: 32
Joined: 5 years ago
Location: Bath, UK
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Tarmac » 5 years ago

Just bought a 33 litre pot. :thumbs: (the missus is away)
So will be doing this next brew as soon as humanly possible :)

Thought I'd compare both calculators for this attempt: maxi vs regular to see the differences were.

The Maxi Calc shows about 100g less grain and says I should top up with 5 litres of water during the boil.
So I'll probably do a dunk sparge like PP recommended for my first smaller brew and then gradually add that to the boil.

The Calculator shows I'll need 35 litres of water to do a full mash (too small for my pot at 33l) which makes me think this may be the way forwards.

The only other real difference that I can see is the estimated start/end of boil volumes which are about a litre out either way not sure which would be more accurate - guess the answer is to do it and take some actuals.

All this depends if my stove can boil 25 litres of course... :pray:
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.

User avatar

Yeasty
Gold
Gold
Great Britain
Posts: 1363
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Bolton Lancs UK
Region: Europe
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Post by Yeasty » 5 years ago

Hi Tarmac

Good score on the pot :thumbs: are you sure the wife won't notice :pray:

If you change a couple of settings both the calculators will match. If you want to try it just match the efficiencies and the kettle trub and buffer amounts. The calculator formula uses 18% of the brew length for trub losses where as the Maxi is set at 12%. Its easier to alter the maxi as you can change the % on that sheet. Don't get in a muddle :idiot: and ruin your hard work. :)

I recon if you hold back 7-8 L for a dunk sparge then top up with this you will be ok. The calculator gives you around 6L but the extra bit of water will wash the grains out better.

Yeasty

edit: To achieve a good boil on a stovetop try floating a food safe bowl ontop of the wort, kind of like a floating partial lid. There are a few threads about it if you do a search on "bowl"
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"


Topic author
Tarmac
Draft
Draft
Posts: 32
Joined: 5 years ago
Location: Bath, UK
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Tarmac » 5 years ago

Cheers Yeasty, that really cleared things up! :party:
Makes sense now... there's just so much data it's easy to miss things. Getting the hang of it now I hope.
Which data would be best to go by? The 12% or 18% trub? I'll be using Irish Moss near the end of the boil.

Yeah the other half won't notice another cooking pot... it took her months to notice I'd bought a new rifle! :lol:

Post Reply

Return to “Full-Volume Variations - FVV (diluting and/or sparging)”

Brewers Online

Brewers browsing this forum: No members and 3 guests