First Maxi Biab - Please have a look!

Any method that is not a 'full-volume' mash. Usually, but not always, requires more than a single vessel or heat source. Includes traditional, three-vessel brewing.
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Yeasty
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Post by Yeasty » 5 years ago

:lol: Glad I'm making sense !!

Your doing great with the calculator Tarmac, the more you use it the better you will get at spotting errors. Soon you'll be helping other guys out converting there recipes. :pray:.

As this is your first brew with your new pot I'd go with 18% on the trub losses. The worst that can happen is that you will end up with more beer and as the volume into fermenter is targeted at 21.6L you have room for an extra litre or two :yum: Changing the T&K loss % on the Maxi calc to 18% works out good as it gives the addition amounts as 7.32L and you will want to hold back around 7L of water for a dunk sparge. So it looks perfect :thumbs:

Trub and kettle losses are probably the hardest of your volumes to dial in on as the amount will vary depending on what you are brewing, different mix of grain bills, different hop bills and different OG's will all have a bearing on the amount of trub. Better to err on the up side and have more beer than be short :whistle:

:peace:

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Last edited by Yeasty on 16 Oct 2012, 23:23, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by PistolPatch » 5 years ago

[EDIT: Spent an hour rambling the below, probably to myself :) so missed Yeasty's post above :roll:]

Tarmac, I'm going tag team with Yeasty. He's answered the hard question on how to get the two calculators to match so I'll go the easy question on the trub.

Mathematical Side

Both of the calculator spreadsheets and all existing brewing software have severe limitations on trub estimations. In fact, no major software even bothers trying to estimate trub - it's left entirely up to the individual. "The Calculator"'s aim (and the BIABAcus is following that aim) is to get brewers under way with as few decisions as possible. So, "The Calculator," has evaporation and trub estimate formulas you won't find anywhere else or, if you do, they originated from "The Calculator". As Yeasty has pointed out, stux adjusted some of the base trub calcs from "The Calculator" to suit his own equipment, hence the mis-match of estimates but...

Here's what you should know...

"The Calculator," trub estimates are deliberately on the high side. The reason for this is that the worst that can happen is you will get more beer than you expected. (The gravity should remain unaffected.) If you use a hop sock you could halve the kettle trub losses predicted by "The Calculator". If you crash-chill your primary before kegging or if you use a secondary before bottling, you could halve the fermentor losses predicted by, "The Calculator".

What You Should Do Now

Whilst, 'The Calculator," gives a starting point for you (to get you into the ballpark), don't treat it as gospel. You can reduce kettle trub losses dramatically by using a hopsock or a successful whirlpool. Fermentor trub can be reduced by crash-chilling before transfer to packaging. So, explore those options and don't be surprised if you do better than the "BrewLength" predicted in "The Calculator". ("BrewLength," will become "Volume into Packaging" in the BIABacus.)

If you find yourself with less trub than The Calculator predicts, just change cell B6 to "=B5*0.04" to change the fermentor loss or...
Cell B 8 to "=B5*0.09". (Don't publish your variation though as it will confuse everone!!!) These are just examples.

BIABacus Trub Improvements on "The Calculator"

I know that everyone is sick of hearing about the BIABacus and wants to see it tomorrow :lol: but The BIABacus is nothing more than a much better version of The Calculator. It requires less inputs by a new user but allows for faster and more accurate control than any advanced user could hope for or find anywhere else. For example, if the new brewer touches nothing in the BIABacus, trub estimates are automatically done at a high estimate. If the intermediate user types Y on two fields, kettle and fermentor loss estimates are automatically reduced. The advanced user can go further and over-ride these estimates in several different ways.

One thing we haven't explored on trub...

The amount of hops used in a recipe have a dramatic affect on trub. Like so many other brewing figures, there is virtually no quality information on this. What little there is disagrees. So, if we haven't got good info on this, well :roll:.

Apologies for what is probably a ramble Tarmac,
PP

P.S. (The BIABAcus guys have given up on working out how to write a complete help for the BIABAcus as it will take a small book. So, the BIABAcus, without comprehensive, clickable help :angry: should be here sooner than thought :party:. Instead of the exhaustive help envisioned it looks like initial help will be given to members here. Better than waiting another year :lol:.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 17 Oct 2012, 00:00, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by joshua » 5 years ago

Good Day, My Experiments on Trub, has been Using an old BIAB BAG for a hop sock, with a few marlbles/Ball Bearing to hold it down.

It has removed 50-60%(by volume) of the trub and 33-45%(by volume) of the Hotbreak, as I pull the bag at the end of the boil.

I Slow-Chill in the kettle overnight and DO find less than 1/2 the trub as I did before the Bag/hop sack.

Since the Hop Bag can be drained and be squeezed, there is very little wort loss.

On my next batch, I will try to recover and weigh/measure the total Trub Loss.
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Post by BobBrews » 5 years ago

joshua,

Good going! Perfect it, and write up what I should do! I can follow instructions as long as it doesn't include math! Take the leading edge and run with it!
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Post by Tarmac » 5 years ago

Great feedback as always guys - thanks so much! Really appreciate the time you're taking to help me out. :salute:

Just tried out my new pot and even with it covering two gas hobs it won't get a good rolling boil going at 25 litres.:( (unless the lid is completely on and we don't want that now do we?). Gets to about 98 degrees centigrade and then sits there the cheeky bugg3r doing a half hearted kind of boil under the bit I cover with the lid.

So I scooped some out and it'll do a strong boil somewhere between 15 to 18 litres - so back to the calculator for me! Practice makes perfect I guess. :think:

A bit miffed I won't be able to make the amounts I wanted after buying such a nice, big, shiny pot but as long as it's good quality, tasty beer I'm not so bothered. Guess it means I can try a greater variety of different brews and the missus can always buy me a nice bit of brewing kit for xmas...

This thread's becoming fairly epic now!

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Post by Yeasty » 5 years ago

Did you try the bowl trick ???.

or get one of these..Babies
Last edited by Yeasty on 17 Oct 2012, 05:34, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Tarmac » 5 years ago

I'll try the bowl tomorrow - completely forgot about it! :o But I did have most of the pot covered and still no joy.

Think I'll put one of those burners on my xmas list - although the beauty of our flat is gas is included in the rent ;)

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Post by Yeasty » 5 years ago

Tarmac wrote:I'll try the bowl tomorrow - completely forgot about it! :o But I did have most of the pot covered and still no joy.

Think I'll put one of those burners on my xmas list - although the beauty of our flat is gas is included in the rent ;)
Get your landlord to change your hob for a big single burner... :lol:

If gas is included what about electric ?
Last edited by Yeasty on 17 Oct 2012, 05:56, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Tarmac » 4 years ago

I could live with that :)
Nah, rent includes the gas and water - not electric sadly.

Does the bowl make a significant difference? THink it would enable me to do my 20 litre brew as planned?

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Post by Yeasty » 4 years ago

Depends how big ya bowl is !!

If you think of commercial breweries they have covers with chimney's so you could do that at home but it would be impractical I suppose. With a bowl its all about reducing the surface area whilst allowing DMS to escape, all you can do is give it a try.
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Post by joshua » 4 years ago

I found on a brewery tour that the Chimney has a large fan conected to remove "Beer Vapour", and produce a slight vaccuum.

This may lower the pressure of the Kettle to incease the action of the Boil, Or lower the Boil temperature.
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Post by Lylo » 4 years ago

Rateher that spreading the heat out over 2 sources you might try tipping the kettle an inch or so.That will concentrate the heat a bit, just be careful of burning the wort to the bottom!
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Post by Tarmac » 4 years ago

I've adjusted the maxi calulator to make it think I have a smaller pot.
This means my boil will only be about 16litres (which I can do on my stove) to get 18 litres of beer.

I'll get a nice stainless bowl today and do another wet run to see jsut what the capabilities are.

Can't really tilt my pot Lylo - see below ;)
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Post by lambert » 4 years ago

Tarmac,
Nice shiney! I've got the 70L big brother kettle - quality kit. Some tips on getting to the boil:
1. After you have pulled the bag and lit the flame put the lid back on the kettle (leave a 1 inch/2cm slit open). This helps to get the wort to boiling point. Once you have reached the boil remove the lid completely.
2. I've been thinking of getting one of these. It should help in getting the wort to the boil easier. I think that you might be able to maintain a boil on your stovetop but it will be very slow getting there. The immersion heater should help...

Good luck and enjoy! I think you are in for a steamed up kitchen!

Lambert
Last edited by lambert on 17 Oct 2012, 20:19, edited 2 times in total.

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Post by Yeasty » 4 years ago

Hey Tarmac just turn the grill on, its bound to help :lol: :lol:

Nice link by Lambert on the heat stick. I didn't realise you could get them in the UK. All the ones I've seen have been homemade. One of those should do the trick.

On a practical point, if you do use your stove top I can see a potential problem with condensation forming on the grill part of your cooker and dripping back into your wort. Before you start brewing try to secure a towel around the cooker parts above the pot. This will soak up any condensation and stop nasties from infecting your brew.
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Post by Tarmac » 4 years ago

Hey, hey peeps. Did a little experiment last night to see how using a bowl affects the boil.
I made a video showing the varying boil level and temperature of 25 litres down to 16 littres or so in a 35x35x35cm pot (33litres).

I know - prize winning, gripping stuff :roll: . I'll upload it to youtube and post a link once I've worked out how to.

I had thermometer issues the whole way along as it never seemed to get above 98 degrees to whole time. I'll test this in the kettle tonight on a strong boil and see what happens. I presume that's because only pure water boils at 100c. SO does wort boil lower than 100 degrees as it's full of sugars and wholesome beer flavours? If so more experimentation to be done!

Hmmm, the boil stick I have mixed feelings about... looks dodgy as hell and don't trust myself to not drop it in the brew! :argh:
I can get a lovely strong boil easily with the lid on - but once it comes off it disappears quicker than a frenchman outside a brothel. Never to return. ;)


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Post by lambert » 4 years ago

Aaahw, Tarmac, I was hoping that you would take one for the team! Get the stick, try it out and see if it's safe. :pray: The lead on that boil stick looks a bit flimsy...

Also, have a look at what these guys have done with steam extraction. The lid on top of the kettle might just mean that you will be able to maintain a boil. And you will be able to get rid of the steam.
Last edited by lambert on 18 Oct 2012, 17:21, edited 2 times in total.


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Post by Tarmac » 4 years ago

No chance lambert :whistle: I want to live to enjoy my beer ;) Does that thing even have an earth?

That's one h3ll of a setup with the extraction tube. Seems to cause more problems though and I really want to keep my brewing as simple as possible. I just open the window and turn the dehumidifier on.

Think I'll have to bite the bullet one day, move outside and buy a burner. But for now I'll carry on being a kitchen top crusader... or something like that. :smoke:


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Post by Tarmac » 4 years ago

Realised my new shiny doesn't fit in the sink or the big bucket I used previously. :nup:

So....
I made this
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Post by Lylo » 4 years ago

These can be reworked to your desired diameter. Just find a cylinder the right size,slide the IC over it and starting at the bottom rewrap it. Copper is very malleable.
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Post by PistolPatch » 4 years ago

Like your pic title Tarmac :P. Nice work :thumbs:.
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Post by Tarmac » 4 years ago

Cheers PP :)

Did my second maxi/biab this weekend - the Proper Job IPA. All went smooth(ish) and the chiller I made works really well. Was down to pitching temp in 20 minutes :party:

My volumes and OG after the mash came up short again sadly. 15 litres rather than 18 and daaamn it is hoppy! :think: Still - good beer.

I worked backwards on the calculator to see what data would give me the results I actually got. And I think I've nailed it down and so adjusted my copy of the maxi calc to give me an efficiency of 70% rather than the default which I'm thinking will help with calculating the next brew. And next time - I intend to hit my targets!

The best thing about all this experimenting is that it produces really good beer :yum:

Q: What is the maximum OG Maxi Biab can produce out of the mash? I know that adding loads of grain won't produce a highly concentrated wort I'm trying to refine my system. :?:

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Post by Yeasty » 4 years ago

Hi Tarmac

Can you post some numbers..SOBV, EOBV and SOBG, EOBG or a completed spreadsheet ? Just interested in your low efficiency.. :think: and what make of Malt did you use ? there have been reports of low efficiency by UK brewers using Bairds.


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Post by thughes » 4 years ago

Yeasty wrote:....there have been reports of low efficiency by UK brewers using Bairds.Yeasty
Really? I acquired a sack of Bairds Maris Otter recently and was surprised to see my efficiency take a nose dive. I've been trying to figure out what changed in my process, interesting to hear it may be the malt itself. I would like to know more about this.

---Todd
Last edited by thughes on 23 Oct 2012, 00:38, edited 2 times in total.
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Post by Yeasty » 4 years ago

thughes wrote:
Yeasty wrote:....there have been reports of low efficiency by UK brewers using Bairds.Yeasty
Really? I acquired a sack of Bairds Maris Otter recently and was surprised to see my efficiency take a nose dive. I've been trying to figure out what changed in my process, interesting to hear it may be the malt itself. I would like to know more about this.

---Todd
I'll dig out some links for you Todd. I only picked up on it as I saw a post just after I bought a sack myself. My sack was ok but some guys have reported low efficiency.

Links here



:peace:
Last edited by Yeasty on 23 Oct 2012, 01:32, edited 2 times in total.
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