Your Feedback and Questions on Using Maxi-BIAB on Mini-BIAB.

Any method that is not a 'full-volume' mash. Usually, but not always, requires more than a single vessel or heat source. Includes traditional, three-vessel brewing.

BrickBrewHaus
Gold
Gold
Posts: 383
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Champaign, IL
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by BrickBrewHaus » 6 years ago

mrrm1st wrote:Is there any benefit to using an immersion wort chiller over and above cooling the stock pot in cold water in the sink etc or is that not really too important?
Both methods are fine. An immersion chiller will cool your wort faster than an ice bath and I doubt you'll see much improvement with using both at one time. So for the sake of simplicity, if you have an immersion chiller I would just stick with that technique only. If you don't have an immersion chiller and don't want to spend the money on one, then an ice bath is just fine too.
mrrm1st wrote:I came to this site specifically to get a better understanding of maxi-BIAB. Having the maxi-BIAG guide in a sub-forum titled "Mini-BIAB" is a little confusing.
Good suggestion. The amount of people using the maxi-BIAB technique seem to be growing considerably, so it does make sense for it to have its own sub-forum. Maybe the mods can work on that.
Last edited by BrickBrewHaus on 07 Jan 2011, 23:48, edited 5 times in total.


jonesy
Craft
Craft
Posts: 28
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Adelaide Australia
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by jonesy » 6 years ago

Hi mrrm what i've been doing is using 2 plastic tubs/containers that my kettle will fit in along with about 30 litres of water and some ice. I fill the first with the cold water and ice and put the kettle in and then after 20 minutes put the kettle into the second that has cold water and ice and then after 20 minutes back to the 1st again with fresh cold water. This seems to work fine for me as it gets it down to about 20 celcius which is fine for the style of yeast i've been using but i'm not sure how long you'd have to wait to get it down to a lager temp by doing this. I also like this as i can then take the container outside and pour the water on the garden so its not wasted which is a bit of an issue where i live.

Cheers

Jonesy


Bec26
Draft
Draft
Posts: 14
Joined: 7 years ago
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Bec26 » 6 years ago

Ok

did the brew yesterday and it is currently in a no chill container OG is 1080 ( this may a bit high due to it being taken from the leftovers in the urn, but I did wait until it was clear in the jug. There was no cold break or "stuff" doen the bottom of my hydro tube either) but I don't know how many litres are in it.

It is about a half full blue willow containers worth.

Should I just top up with water , stir and take hydro samples until I hit the recipe OG (which is 1044- 1048 range) or just go to 23l in one go?

Thanks in advance.
Bruce

User avatar

hashie
Gold
Gold
Posts: 1451
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Bendigo, Victoria
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by hashie » 6 years ago

Hi Bruce, it's a bit hard to answer your question without actual figures but here goes;

Assuming you have 12 litres (about 1/2 a willow container?) of wort at 1080, diluting with 10 litres of water will give you an OG of 1044. Diluting with 8 litres of water will give you an OG of 1048.

Hope this helps.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."


Bec26
Draft
Draft
Posts: 14
Joined: 7 years ago
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Bec26 » 6 years ago

hashie wrote:Hi Bruce, it's a bit hard to answer your question without actual figures but here goes;

Assuming you have 12 litres (about 1/2 a willow container?) of wort at 1080, diluting with 10 litres of water will give you an OG of 1044. Diluting with 8 litres of water will give you an OG of 1048.

Hope this helps.
Thanks Hashie :thumbs:

It seems that I forgotten to take into account the sucked in sides of the willow, so it looks lie it was closer to 10L.

When I poured it into the fermenter, it was thicker than usual can kits, smelt great and was clear. Also, very little caught in the strainer.

I think the loss was due to me being a bit wary of the "dead space" under the tap. It looked very turgid and not very exciting :dunno:

Anyways, added 9L and took hydro reading on the way, ended up around 20l from what I can see,

Smelt good, very very clear and tasted great too.

Now in the ferment fridge comindown from 28 (no chill) to 17.

Exciting times! :clap:

Cheers
Bruce
Last edited by Bec26 on 11 Jan 2011, 21:09, edited 5 times in total.

User avatar

hashie
Gold
Gold
Posts: 1451
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Bendigo, Victoria
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by hashie » 6 years ago

Sounds like it all turned out well Bruce.

Keep us posted on how it turns out.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."


Bec26
Draft
Draft
Posts: 14
Joined: 7 years ago
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Bec26 » 6 years ago

Hey All

First an update . . .1st brew still in ferment fridge - 8 days @17deg. Will take my first hydro reading tomorrow.

Now, getting ready to do my next Maxi.

I have re-read the guide and was wondering if, after the mash, I should top up with water (probably around 3-4 litres and then start the boil.

If I did that, I would then end with (i think) around 15 odd litres and need less to top up for fermentation (looking for 23 l).

Thoughts . . .

Cheers
Bruce

User avatar

wizard78
Gold
Gold
Posts: 489
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Somerville, Vic, Australia
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by wizard78 » 6 years ago

First of all I'll say I have never done Maxi-biab, so take my advice with a grain of salt.
I would personally try to keep the kettle topped up as much as possible during the boil, and use as little fermenter top up as possible. Also, I wouldn't add any top up water to the boil after 10-15 minutes left in the boil.
This is just my own preference, and the way I intend to do my double batches in my 50L keggle in the near future.
Hopefuly Ralph will reply, as he has done many a batch using Maxi-biab.
Hope this helps,
Cheers wiz
"All right, brain. You don't like me and I don't like you, but let's just do this and I can get back to killing you with beer."
[/i]
Homer Simpson
K.I.S.S., B.I.A.B.
[/b]


jonesy
Craft
Craft
Posts: 28
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Adelaide Australia
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by jonesy » 6 years ago

Hi Bruce

I've done a few of these and i do what Ralphs got in the guide.

I've got a 20 litre pot that i use for my kettle a spare pot that holds about 10 litres and a $2 plastic bucket.

When the mash is finished I normally have about 14-15 litres when the bag comes out so i put a couple of litres of boiling water in my second pot and drop the bag into it I then put a couple of litres of boiling water on top of the grain so it goes through the bag and leave it for 15 minutes giving it a couple of stirs during that 15 minutes.

When the times up i take the bag out and put it in the plastic bucket and pour the liquid thats in the second pot from the grain into the kettle which takes my volume up to about 17 litres and then i do the same again which gives me enough liquid to get up to about the 19 litre mark and normally a bit left over.

It also works out well time wise for me as these two 15 minute dunk sparges (I think thats the terminology) is roughly how long it takes my kettle to come to the boil.

Hope this makes sense and answers what your after.

Cheers

Jonesy


Topic author
Ralph
Gold
Gold
Posts: 455
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: SE Qld
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Ralph » 6 years ago

Folks, I'll have to be brief as I have to fly into work, things have gone to sh*t again with our telemetry so I have to stop the sky from falling on our heads!

Yes, my rationale with Maxi is to have the kettle as full as possible all the time, but rather than use plain water I use it as sparge, that way it is put to constructive use. Evaporation can also be made good by adding excess sparge, thereby squeezing even more SG points into the kettle, but it should be pre- heated (microwave!) or else it pauses the boil. Don't add it after say 20 minutes, it really needs a good boil to be sanitised.

So Bruce, use that top up water for some good by dunk sparging!

Jonesy, that sounds pretty good to me, well done! A bigger bucket is probably desirable though, I just wanted to keep the method within everyone's reach so used very common equipment. A 15L nappy bucket would be good too, may be able to do it in one step.

Hope this helps, cheers everyone!
Give me a beer and I will move the world. Archimedes


stux
Gold
Gold
Posts: 1284
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Lower Blue Mountains, NSW, Australia
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by stux » 6 years ago

Maxi-BIAB Calculator that I've been working on
http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=21&t=595

Useful for those who want to do double/triple batches using Maxi-BIAB principles, or for those who just want a few numbers and predictions along the way.
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12


stux
Gold
Gold
Posts: 1284
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Lower Blue Mountains, NSW, Australia
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by stux » 6 years ago

wizard78 wrote:First of all I'll say I have never done Maxi-biab, so take my advice with a grain of salt.
I would personally try to keep the kettle topped up as much as possible during the boil, and use as little fermenter top up as possible. Also, I wouldn't add any top up water to the boil after 10-15 minutes left in the boil.
This is just my own preference, and the way I intend to do my double batches in my 50L keggle in the near future.
Hopefuly Ralph will reply, as he has done many a batch using Maxi-biab.
Hope this helps,
Cheers wiz
The best reason to top up during the boil as much as possible is you dilute your kettle trub, which means you end up with more sugars in your fermenter
Last edited by stux on 02 Feb 2011, 20:43, edited 5 times in total.
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12


Topic author
Ralph
Gold
Gold
Posts: 455
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: SE Qld
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Ralph » 6 years ago

Yeah, that's certainly one good reason stux! Its also another good reason to add any sugar (if to style) to the fermenter and not to the boil.

FWIW, I get the feeling there's a few planets lining up with Maxi-BIAB, when delving into the numbers a bit, I find it is unlikely to use the technique to do a no- sparge/ plain boil- topped/ post- boil diluted (!!!) beer of much more than mid- strength. I know it hasn't been suggested, however for example, it isn't as simple as just adding more grain, for doing that, while it increases the runnings SG, it also reduces the wort yield because the mash volume is limited by the kettle. I'm mainly speculating here as I haven't tried that, but looking back over numbers from a few dozen batches, that seems to be the indication. [Probably a bit OT, but just an observation.]
Give me a beer and I will move the world. Archimedes


stux
Gold
Gold
Posts: 1284
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Lower Blue Mountains, NSW, Australia
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by stux » 6 years ago

Yes, my own experiences concur

As the gravity of the mashout liquor goes up, it becomes harder for the syrup to self-wash off the grain as you pull the bag, necessitating sparging/squeezing if you want to get above, say 75%.

doing a mashout reduces the thickness of the mashout liquor which helps it run of the grain, then the you squeeze it out, and then you rinse the grains... and that's the sparge.

Its all quite logical really :)

The big trick is not to over-sparge and end up with more liquid that you can fit in your pot, or boil off ;)
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12

User avatar

dantheman13
Draft
Draft
Posts: 26
Joined: 6 years ago
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by dantheman13 » 6 years ago

New brewer here. I haven't done a BIAB, but I want to soon! Ralph's guide has been a huge help in my planning process.

I am curious about what you guys think about another BIAB style that is very similar to Ralph's guide (http://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/all-gra ... cs-142648/). The basic difference that I can see between the two methods is that with Ralph's, the sparge is done in a bucket, where as in the linked method the sparge is done in the kettle after the first round of wort is produced and dumped into a holding vessel. After the sparging is done, the wort in the holding vessel is added back to the kettle and prepared for the boil.

Is there any benefit or harm to using the linked method's sparging technique instead? I guess that a potential problem could be that it is possible for the original wort to lose too much heat while in the holding vessel, and thus more difficult to boil. However, with a holding vessel you are losing heat either way, right? I was planning on doing my batch that way because it just seems more simple to me.

Thanks for your thoughts!
Native Las Vegan, at your service!
My BrewTube Channel

User avatar

Yeasty
Gold
Gold
Great Britain
Posts: 1363
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Bolton Lancs UK
Region: Europe
Preferred Brewing Method: Single-Vessel All-Grain (SVA)
City:

Post by Yeasty » 6 years ago

Hi Dan and welcome,

I'd stick to Ralphs method, I can't see any advantage in pouring the wort off the grains when its easier to remove the grains from the wort. Plus whilst your sparging the grains in your bucket you can wack up the heat and start boiling your wort.


:peace:
Yeasty
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"

User avatar

hashie
Gold
Gold
Posts: 1451
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Bendigo, Victoria
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by hashie » 6 years ago

Good advice from yeasty there Dan, I'd stick with that.

There is no advantage to the other method that I can see. At least Ralph's method gets the bulk of the wort near to boil while the grain bag is being sparged. So a saving of time and gas.
"It's beer Jim, but not as we know it."

User avatar

dantheman13
Draft
Draft
Posts: 26
Joined: 6 years ago
Location: Las Vegas, NV
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by dantheman13 » 6 years ago

Yeah, I didn't think about the time saving of starting the boil while sparging. Thanks for pointing that out. :)
Native Las Vegan, at your service!
My BrewTube Channel


stux
Gold
Gold
Posts: 1284
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Lower Blue Mountains, NSW, Australia
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by stux » 6 years ago

It would make more sense if you were going to dunk sparge, but you'd still need to heat up the dunk sparge water after transferring, in which case you might as well use a boiled tea kettle to sparge in your bucket
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12


Topic author
Ralph
Gold
Gold
Posts: 455
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: SE Qld
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Ralph » 6 years ago

Yep, nothing much to add that our brains trust hasn't already noted regarding sparging in the kettle and how that slows down the process, so just a couple of fairly minor things.

An oven is fine for maintaining temperature, but I would rather leave the kettle in place. In my circumstances it is going to be moved to the floor for lautering, however some brewers may leave it on the stove for the whole process. Leaving it in place usually means deploying insulation during the mash and I'm glad he noted that some insulation does work rather well in maintaining mash temperature.
I'm of the opinion that a great deal of energy is consumed in making beer, some insulation is one way to reduce that, if only by a relatively small amount, but it also achieves mash temperature stability, so it is really win- win. (BTW, passive lagging also works brilliantly when pre- heated.)
One other note regarding insulation is that the lid does need covering as well. Covering the whole thing will also mean less temptation to continually open the lid to stir or check temperature or both- neither are necessary after the 10 minute check and will just lead to additional heat loss without gaining any amazing benefits.

Importantly, just on the process shown over there at homebrewtalk, it doesn't seem to be post- boil diluted, therefore brewlength is limited by kettle volume. You'll note he split the grainbill into two and did it all twice- that's a lot of work for one 5gal batch. Maxi-BIAB isn't limited like that, it can do it all in one pass and is the major motivation underlying the method.

Oh yeah, there is one more thing- never crack a beer before the first hops addition goes into the kettle during the boil! I sometimes bend this rule, but usually regret it by the end of the brew day, as once I've started it is actually quite difficult to stop.

BTW, well spotted Dan, thanks for sharing!
Give me a beer and I will move the world. Archimedes


tbeahrs
Draft
Draft
Posts: 2
Joined: 6 years ago
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by tbeahrs » 6 years ago

Hello folks.

This method is the best :clap: , especially for those of us who are low on capital. Question for Ralph or anyone who is experienced with this method... What is the most grain you have used in your 19L mash? Clearly the more grain you use the lower your liquor:grain ratio will be. I imagine that at some point efficiency will go down the drain.

The reason for this question is that I an trying to figure out what is the higest gravity beer I can make with 19L kettel using the MAXI-BIAB method?

I'm planning some session strength MAXI-BIABrews for the summer, but I want to know if I will need a bigger kettle to brew a big stout or barley wine this fall.

Thanks!

tbeahrs


stux
Gold
Gold
Posts: 1284
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: Lower Blue Mountains, NSW, Australia
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by stux » 6 years ago

You can play with the Maxi-BIAB calculator to work out how much you can do with your current equipment...

As far as I can tell, the limiting factor is basically what liquor:grain ratio you can get. We haven't determined an effective limit yet, but I'm assuming 2.5:1 (L:KG) would be impractical. 3:1 seems to work okay, but efficiency is reduced

The next limit is then how much wort you can get out of your boil, and that is simply your kettle - trub - end-of-boil headspace.
Fermenting: -
Cubed: -
Stirplate: -
On Tap: NS Summer Ale III (WY1272), Landlord III (WY1469), Fighter's 70/- II (WY1272), Roast Porter (WY1028), Cider, Soda
Next: Munich Helles III

5/7/12


Topic author
Ralph
Gold
Gold
Posts: 455
Joined: 7 years ago
Location: SE Qld
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by Ralph » 6 years ago

Hi tbeahrs,
many thanks for the feedback and that's also a very good question!
With the limited mash tun volume, it isn't just a case of add more grain and everything else stays the same, if you add more grain for the same volume of strike water eventually something has to give and that's head- space, i.e. an overflowing mash! However, we could reduce the strike water volume and increase the grain mass, this indeed can be done, but as you've noted, efficiency goes down the gurgler. There's a few reasons for this, the good thing is the answer lies partly in just simple mathematics (presuming all else is equal). Reduced volume of water = less working fluid to mobilise the sugars, and when a higher proportion of the original strike water volume remains stuck to the grain (i.e. same amount per kg of grain but lesser amount to begin with = higher proportion), efficiency suffers. There is a minimum proportion of liquor which is never drained from wet grain, more grain equates to more liquor retained, and when that medium for carrying away dissolved sugars get eaten in to, efficiency suffers. Sure, the concentration of dissolved sugars can increase, there could be some beneficial aspects (for efficiency) when it comes to the actual mash dynamics, but not enough to offset those proportional losses, hence overall efficiency is reduced.
This are a few reasons why sparging becomes a handy tool for stove top brewers. Firstly, bearing in mind that Maxi-BIAB uses a more conventional L:G ratio for mashing of around 3-4 L/kg, it frees up those sugars which would otherwise be lost from the process, and does so in a way which is not unfamiliar to brewing, i.e. a simple rinse step. Secondly, it takes advantage of the kettle volume which would otherwise be 'wasted', and as long as your heat source can manage it, I say use it!
When it comes to the actual numbers, IIRC, 5.5kg is the most I've ever mashed in a 19L stockpot, but my usual grainbill is about 4.5kg. This often yields about 23-25L of 1.050-1.055 in the fermenter, although I often supplement this with 5% of the grainbill as sugar, but that is indeed to style. This 4.5kg grainbill seems to be where efficiency is peaking, very seldom do I even have to do the numbers to work out what might have gone wrong. However, it seems 6kg can be managed without too much hassle or bother.
FWIW, some rough sums I did a while back indicated that up to 6kg the relative efficiency loss was tending towards 3% per kg of grain over 4kg, there's a chart below (the 6kg data is not my own, so YMMV). Beyond that, I suspect it will drop considerably, its something I've been meaning to test.
Hope this helps! :smoke:
Image
Last edited by Ralph on 18 Apr 2011, 18:16, edited 5 times in total.
Give me a beer and I will move the world. Archimedes


truman42
Draft
Draft
Posts: 9
Joined: 6 years ago
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by truman42 » 6 years ago

stux wrote: The big trick is not to over-sparge and end up with more liquid that you can fit in your pot, or boil off ;)
Hello Im new to BIAB and want to give it a try but have a couple of questions. If I start with a 19 litre pot and pull my bag out to Sparge and end up with say 15 litres in my pot. Then I sparge with four litres and pour more water over the top of the open grain bag and stir for 15 mins then pull the grain bag out and pour this in the pot which might be say 3-4 litres which takes my pot volume up to 18-19 litres. If I do a second sparge as per the instructions I wont have any room for this liquid to go into the pot as well? I know you can put it aside and add it later but surely it wont reduce that much that I can add the extra 2-3 litres?

Also I am having trouble with this part here and want to make sure Ive got it right.

Ok, so our stockpot has cooled to pitching.
How do we know when it has cooled to pitching if we cant open the lid to check it with a thermometer?
We need to know the Specific Gravity and Volume of the wort (estimate the volume if need be- the kettle is usually full almost to the brim at the boil end, but shrinkage due to cooling will mean that there's a lower volume at pitching). We want the cooled volume, but don't under any circumstances open the lid or touch the wort until you are ready to pitch, even then anything that contacts the wort must be scrupulously sanitised.
How do we get the post boil SG if we cant open the lid?
Work out the dilution, this formula is usually good enough:
Post- boil Specific Gravity / Target Specific Gravity * Post- Boil Concentration = Diluted Volume

So if my post boil SG is 1.070 and my target OG is 1.046 the formula would be 70/60*18=21.06-18=3 litres (assuming my 19L pot has reduced to 18 litres) So I would just add 3.06 litres of water into my fermenter? Shouldnt I also allow a bit extra for trub left behind in the pot?So make my post boil volume 1 litre less??

Thanks for the help.
Last edited by truman42 on 24 Aug 2011, 12:44, edited 5 times in total.


truman42
Draft
Draft
Posts: 9
Joined: 6 years ago
Region: Please select one...
Preferred Brewing Method: Please select one from below...
City:

Post by truman42 » 6 years ago

Okay one more question...Just say I have 17 litres and my post boil SG is very high and when doing my calculations I need to add say 8 litres of water to bring my target gravity down to my recipes limit. 17+8 = 25 litres and my fermenter is only 23 litres.
Do I simply throw out the excess? So only add 15 litres from my pot? Is that how it works??

Locked

Return to “Full-Volume Variations - FVV (diluting and/or sparging)”

Brewers Online

Brewers browsing this forum: No members and 2 guests