Dilution in biab or not?

Any method that is not a 'full-volume' mash. Usually, but not always, requires more than a single vessel or heat source. Includes traditional, three-vessel brewing.
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Dilution in biab or not?

Post by blitz » 1 year ago

Hi,
sorry if is an old debate...didn't find a clear answer.

My rig is capable of 11-13g/44-50liters of finished beer, i need to do more :cry:.
Can i make more beer concentrating the wort, with proper calculation of efficiency reduction, IBU, color darknening, etc. and adding simple water (boiled and cooled) BEFORE adding yeast?

To make this simple, i want an Apa with 1,053 OG and 45IBU, want to make as much as possible.
Doing a batch of 45 liters of wort at 1,085 OG and 70IBU, and dilute it with 25 liters of plain water (70liters total) before going to pitch yeast....

Will be the same (or similar) to the batch done originally with final OG and IBU?
obviously i will make aroma and dryhopping calculation for 70liter batch and not for 45.

To clarify, can i make a good beer diluting it before pitching yeast? At which rate (percentage) it became critical? I read about dextrin reduction hurting the body of the beer, maybe mash temperature adjustement could fix this?


Thanks for any input

Cheers
Adriano


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Post by joshua » 1 year ago

Blitz, you will be Diluting the wort by 35%, From My experience, the Beer will be poor quality.
Any body you have after the boil, will really drop, But, maybe your making a "Lite" APA beer.

Your Number are right on, but it may be better to brew 2 batches at 35L, and add them together, like Many Micro brewers do, 2-3 Kettles, 1 Large fermenter.
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Post by PistolPatch » 1 year ago

Hey Adriano,

There's a full article here on this subject that I knocked up yesterday, which goes into the ins and outs of this area.

As Josh mentioned above, 35% is really stepping over the safety line. With fermentor dilutions, you really don't want to be going more than 20%, and, at that rate, use great quality water.

Also, as long as you enter your dilution into 'Water Added to Fermentor' in Section W, there is no need to do any fancy IBU or dry hopping adjustments, the BIABacus will do that automatically.

:peace:
Last edited by PistolPatch on 28 Feb 2016, 14:45, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by blitz » 1 year ago

Thanks for the inputs,
i've read the other thread, very informative, thanks! :peace:

So just to summarize: because i can't sparge right now, next best method is adding water before or during first part of the boil, and i can do this.

If i choose to add water in the fermenter (not preferred method) i've to stay low (10-15%) and use high quality water.

I always use bottle water for my brew, with as similar as possible mineral profile to my target, it's ok to dilute with it? I can boil it and cool before add if this will help.

thanks
Adriano


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Post by PistolPatch » 1 year ago

blitz wrote:Thanks for the inputs,
i've read the other thread, very informative, thanks! :peace:
When I get some time, I'll add some 'hard and fast' rules to the article. If there are any other ways that I can improve it, you or anyone else can let me know here or via PM. It's certainly not a straightforward area :argh:.
blitz wrote:So just to summarize: because i can't sparge right now, next best method is adding water before or during first part of the boil, and i can do this.
I wouldn't call adding water, before or during the first part of the boil, "the next best method." In most situations, it is, by far, the preferred method.

I know it's a long article but full-volume variations, are, for the most part, black and white, however, when you want to stretch your kettle to extremes, then you need to be a master of that article, and, understand that everything you do has an impact

Post #7, and the last post of that article, show just how little you will gain by sparging as compared to early dilutions in a situation, such as yours, where you can't full-volume brew.

In your situation, I think that you would easily be able to sparge with the maximum amount you can. In your case, all you need is a food-grade bucket, and a good-sized stock pot, heated on your stove.

...

To even get half-way close to what you are trying to acheive, you'll need to employ all available full-volume variations, and, fully understand all the costs that come with each variation.

In the article, How much beer can I get from my kettle, I have explained these costs, but, I see that the BIABaci' spreadsheets, in the article, have only been downloaded twice in almost 48 hours :smoke:. I hope you are one of the two Blitz, because, that tool is the only one that can even deal with the most basic aspects of 'Full-Volume Variation (FVV).'

Any 'fast' answers that do exist on FVV's, I'm pretty sure, you'll only find in that article, and until you study it and understand it, you'll never really know if you are making the right decisions.

I do full-volume variations all the time.

If you do take the time (and it might take you a few hours, over several days), to study that article, you'll be in a very rare group of brewers. Firstly, you'll begin to see that the true, pure mathematics of brewing should be focussed on inter-relationships, not a primitive and abused understanding of averages.

Then, you'll know your numbers. They'll be easy/comfortable.

If I am planning correctly, I know, I should always end up having to dilute a little into the fermentor, but, I would not plan a brew to do that; that's my reserve, my safety margin, and, I should end up using at least a tad of it on every brew.

On double-batches that are a bit big for my kettle/s, I do plan to, and I do, add water before the boil; I fully understand the cost and benefits, and I get nice beers from those kettles (should sell one or drink more :roll:).

One Big Thing to Learn...

No matter how much you hope, wish, want, or pray; no matter how much dodgy software you use; no matter how many online people tell you a gigalitre of beer can be produced from a thimble; the sooner you realise that your kettle has real volume limits, just like your fermentor, but better disguised, the faster you will get to FunLand.

Funland is not a make-believe world, it's the real world, where, whether you are in a small boat, or, a large ship, you can focus on the beauty of the sea.

;)
PP

P.S. Hope the above reads okay, but, bear in mind, I spent 14 hours yesterday writing 'the article' mentioned above, and another 21 hours today, concentrating on some other educational brewing stuff.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 01 Mar 2016, 01:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Post by blitz » 1 year ago

Really apprecciate your post PP!
I've read the article two times, first on the fly and second time with more attention, making some test on biabacus at same time.

Probably i need to read it again and again to master it...but i think i undestand two things:
1) doing full volume biab (as i always done) is simple and "clean" way to do things, full volume variation works, but need to master it.
2) i will never get to what i initially thought (35% increment) maintaining recipe integrity

So i reduce my expectation to real one :) , probably shooting just for a 5-8% increment in volume, just to top a bit a 60liters fermenter


Thanks :peace:

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Post by Rick » 1 year ago

PistolPatch wrote:
One Big Thing to Learn...

No matter how much you hope, wish, want, or pray; no matter how much dodgy software you use; no matter how many online people tell you a gigalitre of beer can be produced from a thimble; the sooner you realise that your kettle has real volume limits, just like your fermentor, but better disguised, the faster you will get to FunLand.

Funland is not a make-believe world, it's the real world, where, whether you are in a small boat, or, a large ship, you can focus on the beauty of the sea.

;)
PP
I completely agree with this. It amazes me how people across every brew board seems to treat upgrading to a larger kettle, as if it were as big a financial decision as buying a new automobile. Instead, let's just make a whole lot of bad decisions while being stubborn about volumes! Because ... somebody with a high post count told them it was possible. Kinda off-topic where my ranting originates, considering most in this position that I see are typically trying to squeeze out "5G" of high gravity wort from a kit setup, but the idea goes the same for just about any heavily debated aspect of brewing.

I mean, one cannot blame a beginner in this position, it's the equivalent of getting prime advice from that HYOOGE guy at the gym. He is the guy people listen to, because look at him right? I'll tell you what, my friend Colin ... while in ridiculous shape, he doesn't look like the caricature I speak of (more on him later).

What chiseled Big Gym-Bro doesn't tell you; was it uber strict diet for many years/general good dietary habits and consistency? steroids? ... prime genetics? OCD? Any or all can play the biggest role in their physique, but they will swear that 4 minutes per day of pistol squats on a bosu ball while clinching their butthole to an extreme is the secret to their success. Anything he does is likely going to work. Problem is, most will genuinely believe everything they are being told for superficial reasons while completely ignoring the important variables (and competent educators) in front of them. Bruh ...

Many people never achieve their goals, because people like him give advice that won't work for the average bloke. If the majority listened to that formally educated/skinnier guy (Colin) ... who can cite studies and apply them to any context, skillfully, they would have reached their goal yesterday(sic) with a rock solid plan. But no, people typically are blind and will always search for that "magic pill". They will pursue until they find support for what they wanted to hear instead of following the prudent path. The Dunning-Kruger effect has run amok, and newbies are quite vulnerable to the advice from people who have no clue how poor their advice actually is. The kicker is that they are so friggin' sure of themselves, while those who are highly intelligent will always be full of doubt and work more in probabilities than certainties.

It's only natural to want the greatest possible volume from many hours of hard work. Soooooo many people will brag on a forum about how great their setup is without being patient enough to explain the nuts and bolts of it all, if they even know such detail. I try to give disclaimers whenever I can.

"It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so." -Mark Twain

Human nature sucks, and unfortunately folks like Patch who 'get it' are always going to be outnumbered. I'm glad there are educators like him out there hacking away at misinformation with their proverbial machete.
Last edited by Rick on 01 Mar 2016, 18:34, edited 2 times in total.


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Post by joshua » 1 year ago

Edit: Removed by Owner.
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Post by Rick » 1 year ago

Image
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Post by goulaigan » 1 year ago

One of my favourite shows right there :)

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Post by Rick » 1 year ago

goulaigan wrote:One of my favourite shows right there :)
Props to Netflix for keeping it alive, season 10 is almost here!
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Post by goulaigan » 1 year ago

Absolutely agreed. :) Me and my wife were extras in swearnet when they filmed it around here, those guys are hilarious on and off camera...


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Post by PistolPatch » 1 year ago

Go Rick :party:.
blitz wrote:Really apprecciate your post PP!
I've read the article two times, first on the fly and second time with more attention, making some test on biabacus at same time.

Probably i need to read it again and again to master it...but i think i undestand two things:
1) doing full volume biab (as i always done) is simple and "clean" way to do things, full volume variation works, but need to master it.
2) i will never get to what i initially thought (35% increment) maintaining recipe integrity

So i reduce my expectation to real one :) , probably shooting just for a 5-8% increment in volume, just to top a bit a 60liters fermenter

Thanks :peace:
Sounds like you've got it, no problems, Blitz :thumbs:.

Glad that some of my rumblings and ramblings* made sense. Until you're sure of your FVV's, just post your plan up so it can be checked, and that way you can brew it without worrying. Sometimes even Rick and I don't get carried away checking a recipe over - lol. I reckon, though, that you are definitely on the right track in your understanding so...

Good job :peace:
PP

* I am going to read Rick's rumbling ramble above a heap of times :). That is a cracker :party:. Very true too. So often, attempts to save money in brewing, result in brewing asking for the 'saving' to be re-paid in labour, time, quality or money, at an interest rate that would make a loan-shark blush.
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Post by Rick » 1 year ago

Thanks for reading my moment of internet rage, really doesn't have anything to do with what is going on in here ... I was reading on HBT a few minutes prior to that rant. Where's my stress ball ...


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Post by blitz » 1 year ago

CITRA APA.xls
Here's the biabacus file adjusted with 6liters dilution.
Recipe done to clear all malts and hop at home, target is a very hoppy APA (54 points OG, 50ibu, dry body) all in late hop addiction to smooth bitterness.


Cheers
Adriano
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Post by joshua » 1 year ago

Adriano(Blitz), the recipe looks good, BIG, but Good.

It is good the see you found a way to cut the Dilution to 10%!

I wonder if your squeezing the Sweet Liquor out of the Bag, or just Letting it drain?

Good Luck with thsi Batch!
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Post by blitz » 1 year ago

Thanks joshua!
I drain it for 5minutes then squeeze the hell out of it!
Use the "six hands diabolic squeeze" technic :lol: , look here viewtopic.php?f=152&t=3541&p=52601#p52601, done this batch a couple of weeks ago.
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Post by PistolPatch » 1 year ago

Just had a look at your file Adriano, and, there're a few things we need to have a look at here.

First, I'm going to have a look at everything except Section X...

You have the red warning showing for the mash volume. Go to Section T, and you'll see you only have 4.1 cm of headspace, which is very little. You really want to keep things comfortable so you can agitate the mash easily.

Preferably use 90 minutes for a mash in BIAB. In three vessel-brewing, they might do a 60 minute mash, but that is always followed with more time sparging. BIAB is doing both those things at once, and, no matter what you read about iodine tests, etc., etc., many batches by many brewers on this site, show a worthwhile increase in extraction between a 60 minute and 90 minute mash on almost all grain bills.

In Section W, your 6 litres could be added before the boil without triggering any alarms. But, all the above is 'moot' because of Section X...

Section X

Unless you have done quite a few batches, you really shouldn't play with Section X. The auto-defaults in The BIABacus, are designed to ensure that you end with at least the amount of beer you are chasing, usually more so there's no need to adjust them. I'm going to work from the bottom of Section X up.

Volume Loss from Lauter: 0.40 is lower than the default, and, if anything, you need it to be higher. It's much easier to wring a face washer dry than a beach towel. You're dealing with 14 kg of grain - that's a beach towel!!! If anything, I'd be putting that up to 0.75.

Fermentor to Packaging Loss: 3 litres of loss from 55L in a fermentor is tiny. Even the BIABacus defaults are too low I reckon. Just noticed your dry hopping as well. 240 grams of dry hops, even in a hop sock, is going to suck up and retain a lot of wort.

Kettle to Fermentor Loss: Same as above. Even the BIABacus default on this brew is only leaving you with about 3cm of trub in the kettle which isn't much especially given the hop bill.

Auto Efficiency: Once again, you can leave that one alone as The BIABacus is going to estimate it better than you. In fact, even though the BIABacus tries to slightly under-estimate kettle efficiency, you have lowered it even more (if you include your existing over-rides).

My File/s

I know you are trying to use a set amount of ingredients, so, I have made sure the right-hand sides of Section C and D are very close to the left-hand side.

I've removed all the overrides in Section W except Volume Loss from Lauter which I have increased.

I've held back 12L from the mash to make the mash a little bit more comfortable, and I've lowered your Desired Volume into Fermentor by 1 litre as per this file...
BIABacus PR1.3T - American Pale Ale -Citra APA - Batch PP(1).xls
We talked earlier about how you could easily dump your drained bag into a food-grade white bucket and pour any water held back from the mash over that bag (heat the water first). If you choose to do that, you'd just move the 12 in Section W up one field to "Water Used in a Sparge". You'll be able to then increase your Desired Volume into Fermentor to 57L. (You'll have to drop your desired bitterness a tad though if 750 grams is the total of hops you have on hand.) Here's how your file would look if you went for that option...
BIABacus PR1.3T - American Pale Ale -Citra APA - Batch PP(2).xls
I think Section X really stands for a cross, i.e. don't go there!!!

:P
PP
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Post by blitz » 1 year ago

Thanks a lot, really appreciate!

You are totally right on everything! I'll use your modified recipe for sure. :thumbs:

I've done some research on my old (three) brew done with the same setup, Volume Loss from Lauter was about 0,65/0,75 average, don't know where i get this (wrong) value.


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Post by PistolPatch » 1 year ago

On reflection, the 0.40 might not have been you at all Blitz. I think it might even be in one of the current official BIABacus downloads. I seem to remember it being put there to help those used to an older version understanding why their volumes no longer matched.

I'm too lazy/drunk to check now but I'm pretty sure you weren't in the wrong on that. And, it's a very individual number anyway - face washer versus beach towel ;).
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