90 Minute Bittering Hop Addition (Instead of 60 Minute)

Post #1 made 3 years ago
I was at one of our local microbreweries yesterday and was talking with one of the Brewers. On their Bohemian Pilsner they use a 90 minute Bittering hop addition (Magnum), then nothing until flavor and aroma additions near the end, think it was 15 min and 1 min (and Saaz & Tettnanger, 50/50 split). Said doing 90 minute was more effective than 60 minute in creating bitterness, get more done with less hops... I plugged this into the BIABacus this morning and it also showed the brew would be more bitter, so he must be right.

I didn't confirm if all their beers were done this way with 90 min Bittering hops or just this one. Was enjoying a cask conditioned Pilsner, which really accentuated the malt in the beer. Interesting...and very unusual to find a cask conditioned Pilsner. I remember beer halls in Germany and some of these would have beer being poured from hand puller taps (either cask conditioned, or something else...not sure, just didn't seem like regular CO2).

This 90 min hop addition seems similar to that FWH (First Wort Hopping) that gets talked about. Does anyone do this 90 minute Bittering hop addition when brewing rather than 60 minute, and can vouch it is a better idea? If it produces more effective use of hops, why isn't this the norm, especially for us since we are already doing doing a 90 minute boil? :scratch: Wondered if anyone had thoughts or perspective on this...

Thanks,
Scott
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Post #2 made 3 years ago
If you ever get the chance, ask them when they start the boil & their first addition. Or to put it another way, how long has the wort been boiling prior to their first addition.

Have a read of this here. I would definitely recommend reading that linked article.

The more you boil hops, the more chance there is to isomerise the alpha acids (to iso alpha acids) which is what creates the "perceived" bitterness.
Last edited by mally on 12 Apr 2015, 16:15, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #4 made 3 years ago
Very interesting...but confusing. Some of this I've seen before, but a lot I hadn't. Been reading and rereading (lots of it is confusing and contradictory), the past 3 hours... :scratch: :smoke: :scratch: Looks like much of what is written disagrees with each other. In fact, I saw a PP post that said that too.

Like for example is FWH added during the Mash or at the beginning of the boil? That original article on FWH from the mid 1990s made it appear a percentage FWH hops added to the mash. Then later some comments say this is a waste and FWH is 30-40% of late hop additions added at the start of the boil. Some of this shows Bittering hops and FWH being added at 60 minutes and some for quite a bit longer. Mally's link to the article (Bavarian Brewery Technology, Feb 1999) was very interesting, and concrete... But said definitively NOT to boil hops for longer than 60 minutes because it will lead to "sharp, undesirable, unpleasant favors". Oh boy... :headhit:

So I really don't know what to make of this besides that there are probably lots of things that can be done and would work to make beer... Would be great if one of the Universities with Fermentation Science disciplines (like Oregon State and UC Davis here in the USA) would do studies on all these different methods... Get some people that have more time than any of us do to run the dozens of experiments. I would happily volunteer to come in and help taste test the brew... :party:

I think for me, if I change anything or try a new idea, hopping style, etc. it will be "one at a time" so that I at least will know if the experiment was a positive or negative.
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Post #5 made 3 years ago
Scott, Some Hops work well with FWH, Mainly 4.0%AA to 7.5%AA hops.
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Very Flavored Hops leave Strong Flavors with FWH, which do not work well, for some people.
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Very Strong Hops <10%AA, have a Hop oil that leaves a Tart taste, and really don't fit any style Beer's.
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Example: Cascade works great, Chinook is Horrible. (both are used in American APA's, with Normal Boil Times.)
Last edited by joshua on 13 Apr 2015, 02:23, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #6 made 3 years ago
Mally - I will ask for clarification from Santiam Brewing, next time I'm in...make sure I didn't get anything confused. I understand their Bittering hops (at least on Pils, but possibly all their beer) are added at 90 minutes, same variety but less amount necessary than would have been added at 60 min. Will try to confirm boiling times, whether also 90 minutes or 120... So if my understanding is correct, it is strictly a Bittering hop addition, not FWH, because the lower AA Saaz and Tettnanger hops are only added at the end of the boil for aroma and flavor, none at 90 min with the Magnum.

Joshua - just wondering about the "hops<AA" creating more tart; think may be typo and you meant over 10% AA (???). I believe Chinook is a 12-14% AA hop, and you say it is bad for FWH (tart taste). If you mean high Alpha hops cause too tart of beer...why would are high AA hops used so often for Bittering? There is a link to the logic chain I'm missing. (But if added in the mash, before the boil...perhaps this would have other consequences? I think you must be adding the hops in the mash at some point)... I've read a bunch of your other posts and think you were a pretty big advocate of FWH. In your experience are these FWH added at 60 min, or 90 min...or in the mash at X degrees? Making sure I understand what you mean.
Last edited by Scott on 13 Apr 2015, 05:07, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #7 made 3 years ago
Scott, The "<" was used as Greater than.

There is a Hop oil called "Cohumulone" that is the Harsh Bitter Hop oil (see viewtopic.php?f=150&t=2215&p=48127#p32244).

The High AA% is great for shorter Boils, Or saving Money...

If you boil 7%AA for an hour, you only need to Boil 14%AA for 40 minutes or So, for the same Bitterness addition, OR use about 40%-55% of the weight for the Same Bitterness as the 7%AA, for a full hour boil.

Adding Hop to The Mash, is very wasteful, most of the Oils will stick to the Husk Material(cellulose), and be gone with the Husks.

The above Link is Mostly about adding Flavor and aroma, AFTER the boil Is Over, But, Has Links to the Hop producers to see the Hop Oil content.

FWH, is generally used in the kettle as the First Drops of Wort come out at Lauter, when Draining the Mash Tun.

For BIAB, the Hops are FWH, when added after the bag is Pulled at Mash-out (176F). Which may be 10-20 minutes before the Full Boil.

So you can Add the time from "mashout to Boil" to the Time used for the Hop Addition.

I hope this helps!!!
Last edited by joshua on 13 Apr 2015, 06:00, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #8 made 3 years ago
Thanks Joshua, that actually does help to clear things up as to FWH. And obviously those hops stay in the whole time, then have the other hop additions added in the hop bag at their proper time. And my take is you add these as soon as you pull your grain bag.

I will review your link a dozen or so more times and hopefully commit more of it to long-term memory. Great info, but also pretty "thick"...like taking a graduate level class as a sophomore. It's obviously really good info in understanding how hops work in beer. Thank you again for taking the time!!!

****LATER****
Just read it slower than the past few times. LOTS of detail in there. Interested in that late hop addition...ones that would boil off at high temp and can only be added late. Not really an IPA fan (that's almost illegal here in the Pacific Northwest - to be a beer fan here and not love PNW IPAs) but I really do like American Pale Ales...and lots of other styles. Certainly a Pale Ale could be pretty interesting with this. And remembering some of your brewing notes you are into Browns, Porters and Stouts. They must be made better as well... Wish I had some samples to try... :scratch: ;)
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Post #9 made 3 years ago
Can I firstly say that Joshua has written some really good stuff above. He writes in a different style from myself and, like myself, makes occasional mistakes. There are a few errors above (not all Josh's) so let's knock them over first before we get to all the good stuff :).

Error 1: "The High AA% is great for shorter Boils, Or saving Money... If you boil 7%AA for an hour, you only need to Boil 14%AA for 40 minutes or So, for the same Bitterness addition, OR use about 40%-55% of the weight for the Same Bitterness as the 7%AA, for a full hour boil." Even at 60 minutes, flavours will creep in from a bittering hop. The minimum a bittering hop should be boiled would be 60 minutes but even then some AA% hops will still impart flavour. In my view, bittering hops, as a general rule should be boiled for 75 minutes. Anything more makes very little difference in utilisation. On a 90 minute boil, this leaves 15 minutes for the boil to stabilise.

Error 2: "So you can Add the time from "mashout to Boil" to the Time used for the Hop Addition." No, you can't do this in your software for FWH for many reasons which I don't think I can deal with today.

Error 3: "Is FWH added during the Mash or at the beginning of the boil?" Mash hopping, is where hops are added to the mash. FWH'ing, never sees the mash. In a three vessel system, after the mash is finished it is drained over some period of time into the kettle. FWH'ing means having the hops sitting in the kettle and then letting the runnings fall over them and gradually get from mash-out temps to boiling point. This time period can vary greatly from one three vessel system to another so the first thing to know is....

There is no clear definition of First Wort hopping.

Even from the original article on FWH, we still don't know the time it took for the runnings (I'm talking three vessel) to reach boiling. There are many, many other unknowns.

The Original FWH'ing has Been Bastardised

The original FWH'ing method involved moving the flavour and aroma additions in lagers/pilsners to FWH'ing. The very limited detail that experiment gave us has been greatly bastardised. Now, high AA% hops are being FWH'ed in many recipes but we have no definitive knowledge of how any particular hop, lt alone hop category, performs under FWH conditions. At the moment we have to rely on anecdotal evidence and there is very little of it. That is why I like posts like Josh's post #5 above. It might only be anecdotal and no side by side but it is a brick in the wall.

FWH'ing should be Treated as an Advanced Hopping Method where there are No Numbers to Rely On

Alex Tronsky is the most knowledgeable brewer on hops I have met and the most important thing he taught was that every hop has it's own characteristics and the way you handle it will affect what characteristics you bring out. In other words, depending on what outcome he needed from a hop, he might boil it, FWH it, whirlpool it or hopback it.

I hope that adds some value. (I've been distracted several times during the above but on a quick read, I think all is correct.)

:peace:
Last edited by PistolPatch on 13 Apr 2015, 19:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #10 made 3 years ago
PP, Overall, Right on!!!
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Last edited by joshua on 13 Apr 2015, 20:19, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #11 made 3 years ago
Okay thanks PP. I think I will stay away from trying it at the moment. Maybe experiment with it some time in the future.

One confirmation on FWH:
Would both you and Alex Trosky (don't know who he is) consider FWH (in BIAB) to be added to the kettle immediately after Mash Out? Or is the answer too variable and would just depend upon hop variety and testing (which hasn't been done yet)? I get that the BIABacus is currently not set up to deal with FWH, so some advantages of not doing FWH when using the BIABacus software.

Bittering Hops:
So you are saying that these higher alpha hops should be boiled for a minimum of 60 minutes we see in most recipes, but boiling longer than 75 minutes doesn't hurt anything but would be a waste because they won't impart any more flavor. And you actually prefer boiling at 75 vs 60 - for Bittering hops because some of the too bitter hop resins can still effect things at 60?

Making sure that my understanding is correct. And thank you!

Scott
Last edited by Scott on 13 Apr 2015, 22:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #12 made 3 years ago
Hey Scott :peace:,

In a rush today so I'll try and be quick ;)...

I loved your post above because it included myself and Alex Tronsky in the same sentence! Excellent but... If Alex knows 100% about managing/manipulating hops, I know only about 5% and I reckon Alex does probably know about 100% :sad:. He is not well known but used to be the head brewer here in Western Australia of Little Creatures. His passion is American hops but I am sure he would be able to apply his skills/art to any hop. Just because he is not well known does not mean he is not the highest authority I have met on hops. He gave a talk to a few of us here once and I'll never forget it. Very passionate brewer who talked so much sense but who was too busy concentrating on making each batch match to probably ever get interested or have time to write about brewing.

So, you are stuck with the likes of joshua, myself etc :).

On FWH (and the BIABacus)

The BIABacus is as well set up/designed, probably better, to deal with FWH at our current level of knowledge. If I get more time later in the week (which I should probably spend on writing BIABacus help etc behind the scenes :P) or maybe after a few beers, I'll try and explain why I wrote that last sentence. I said above that you should not consider FWH at this stage, not because the BIABacus can't handle it, but because we have, at this stage, so little concrete knowledge and it is unnecessary for you to flirt with it. Regard it as fermenting in an open fermenter. It is an advanced technique. Joshua is probably the best person to listen to and maybe Ray Daniels on this area because they have actually done it.

When one day in the far future, you do want to play with FWH, then the best way of doing it with BIAB is as soon as you pull the bag. But, like all the different chilling methods, who knows if your FWH will be the same as some fly spargers who takes 60 minutes after mash to get to the boil?

On Bittering Hops

Let me do the easy one first. Boiling longer than 75 minutes will only do harm. Got that readers? Make sure you do ;).

If you have got that, then we can move on a bit...

Let's have a look at a high Alpha Acid Australian hop called Galaxy. Here's what I think (but don't know for sure) would happen if we want to use it as a bittering hop. I am not even sure that Galaxy, Citra, Amarillo etc were ever intended to ever be used as bittering hops but here are some thoughts...

1. Boil it for 90 minutes and you'll get almost zero difference in utilisation between 75 minutes and may possible venture into "over-cooked" hops territory. All I see here is no gain and potential problems.

2. Boil it for 75 minutes and get almost identical utilisation to that of a 90 minute boil with no danger of over-cooking.

3. Boil it for 60 minutes and all above problems will be null and void but I think that the fresh, citrussy flavours will start creeping in here.

4. Boil it for 45 minutes and flavours on such a hop variety will definitely creep in to the final beer.

Does that help Scott?
Last edited by PistolPatch on 14 Apr 2015, 22:32, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #13 made 3 years ago
Got it for now, thanks PP! This is a help.

At this point I'll try to work at doing everything consistently right within the regular parameters of BIAB and the BIABacus. Did a batch of Dry Irish Stout last weekend, and got less evaporation than normal, forgot the mash out, and actually wound up with a lower OG than planned by a couple points. (Ooops - and I thought I was so dialed in... :think: ). Think I'll just use this as evidence that I need additional work at consistently getting the basics as perfectly as possible before adventuring out into experimental stuff like FWH. And when I do, Joshua will likely be the first guy I go to for help! Thanks again!!!
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Re:

Post #14 made 3 years ago
PistolPatch wrote:
On Bittering Hops

Let me do the easy one first. Boiling longer than 75 minutes will only do harm. Got that readers? Make sure you do ;).

If you have got that, then we can move on a bit...

Let's have a look at a high Alpha Acid Australian hop called Galaxy. Here's what I think (but don't know for sure) would happen if we want to use it as a bittering hop. I am not even sure that Galaxy, Citra, Amarillo etc were ever intended to ever be used as bittering hops but here are some thoughts...

1. Boil it for 90 minutes and you'll get almost zero difference in utilisation between 75 minutes and may possible venture into "over-cooked" hops territory. All I see here is no gain and potential problems.

2. Boil it for 75 minutes and get almost identical utilisation to that of a 90 minute boil with no danger of over-cooking.

3. Boil it for 60 minutes and all above problems will be null and void but I think that the fresh, citrussy flavours will start creeping in here.

4. Boil it for 45 minutes and flavours on such a hop variety will definitely creep in to the final beer.
Hello,

Reading this with interest. On this site a 90 min boil is recommended (which I am adhering to, it should be said).
If >75 mins boil is bad for hops, is first wort hopping to be avoided altogether for a 90 min boil?
Last edited by RedWino on 13 Jun 2015, 01:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #15 made 3 years ago
RedWino wrote:
PistolPatch wrote:
On Bittering Hops

Let me do the easy one first. Boiling longer than 75 minutes will only do harm. Got that readers? Make sure you do ;).

If you have got that, then we can move on a bit...

Let's have a look at a high Alpha Acid Australian hop called Galaxy. Here's what I think (but don't know for sure) would happen if we want to use it as a bittering hop. I am not even sure that Galaxy, Citra, Amarillo etc were ever intended to ever be used as bittering hops but here are some thoughts...

1. Boil it for 90 minutes and you'll get almost zero difference in utilisation between 75 minutes and may possible venture into "over-cooked" hops territory. All I see here is no gain and potential problems.

2. Boil it for 75 minutes and get almost identical utilisation to that of a 90 minute boil with no danger of over-cooking.

3. Boil it for 60 minutes and all above problems will be null and void but I think that the fresh, citrussy flavours will start creeping in here.

4. Boil it for 45 minutes and flavours on such a hop variety will definitely creep in to the final beer.
Hello,

Reading this with interest. On this site a 90 min boil is recommended (which I am adhering to, it should be said).
If >75 mins boil is bad for hops, is first wort hopping to be avoided altogether for a 90 min boil?
What if you added a hop sock right affer lifting the bag and then removed the hop sock just before the boil and then added 15 minutes later for a 75 minute hop boil. Would you get the benefits of FWH without the disadvantages?
Last edited by cfmcintosh on 19 Jun 2015, 23:44, edited 1 time in total.

Post #16 made 3 years ago
CFMcintosh,

Check the Discussion at http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php ... 235#p48097, there is data that shows Some Hops can be used for 120 minutes.
Once the boil is running many of the Hop Oil's boil off.

FWH can take some of the Oils, that Boil off, and Attach them to the Proteins that stay in the wort.

If you are using Flavor types Hops for FWH, your Idea may be Good, FWH until the Boil Starts, and add them back 20-30 Minutes left in the Boil.

The very High AA% hops do not like a long Boil, so plan the Bittering Addition for 60-90 minutes only.

JMHO, YMMV.
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Post #17 made 3 years ago
RedWino - if you do this make sure you post and let us know exactly what you did and what the results were... I'm still intrigued by the idea of FWH.
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