Mashing thick, adding water before boil?

Post #1 made 3 years ago
I've been trying to find a way to up the volumes of our batches. I've even been thinking about going "conventional", with a separate mash-tun. We just made a maximum batch of 1.052 wort today, it was just there up to the brim of the kettle, and our VFO was about 40 liters, so we could have ended up with maybe 35 liters VIF or so. I would like to get a 50 liters VIF, and it just dawned on me that could we make a really thick mash and add water after before boil? Would that work? Or does the gravity fall too rapidly when diluting? I have no grasp on how to calculate gravity changes when diluting/ concentrating?

Note:this may be a totally silly question, I have very close to zero mathematical thought capacity.
"The rules for making hop additions during the boil are about as well defined as those for a knife fight." -Stan Hieronymus

Post #2 made 3 years ago
Onkeltuka, the old MAXI-BIAB did work that way.

Depending on How large your kettle is, you can, Use section 'W' to "over flow" the kettle with "mash volume" and/or "Boil Volume".

Fill in you "Desired volume into the Fermenter", and work out the amounts of water to add pre-boil, and as the Boil Progresses, and as you go to the fermenter, In section 'W"
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Post #3 made 3 years ago
I really can't get my head around how that works? What's the difference between adding water before or during the boil? Or into the fermentor? Are there any drawbacks to doing it this way? If I could get up to 50 liters VIF with the current 72 liter kettle I would sure be a happy camper!
"The rules for making hop additions during the boil are about as well defined as those for a knife fight." -Stan Hieronymus

Post #4 made 3 years ago
Here is a Poor recipe
Image
set as you said above 71.6L kettle with 50L into the Fermeneter....

Check Section 'W'
Last edited by joshua on 08 Mar 2015, 02:51, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #5 made 3 years ago
Thanks man! :salute:

So this is for an OG 1.043 wort, right? And I would start with the SWN of 61.75 liters, right? Is anybody doing it like this, are there some cons to this? I'm just shocked that this hadn't dawned on me earlier! :argh:
"The rules for making hop additions during the boil are about as well defined as those for a knife fight." -Stan Hieronymus

Post #6 made 3 years ago
Onke, have a read through the following posts... #62, #63 and #71. These will answer your questions as to the pros and cons of any full volume variations you do.

Have a read of those and then come back here with any questions you still have.

:peace:
PP

(I'm not quite sure on Josh's first post above. The BIABacus will throw red warnings if you over-flow your kettle. You should never follow a BIABacus plan where Mash Volume or Volume into Kettle exceeded your kettle size.)
Last edited by PistolPatch on 08 Mar 2015, 19:43, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #7 made 3 years ago
So, getting ready to try this. So I'll just mash as usual, and after taking the grains out add 10 liters of water? Does it matter what temp the added water is? I mean, can it be boiling hot? Or is there a way to approximate how much yield I will get if I sparge with that 10 liters? In that case, what temp should the sparge water be?
BIABacus Pre-Release 1.3T RECIPE REPORT BIAB Recipe Designer, Calculator and Scaler. (Please visit http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; for the latest version.) AmerikanStout Recipe Overview

Brewer: onkeltuka
Style: American Stout
Source Recipe Link:
ABV: 6.9% (assumes any priming sugar used is diluted.)

Original Gravity (OG): 1.071
IBU's (Tinseth): 68.1
Bitterness to Gravity Ratio: 0.96
Colour: 82.1 EBC = 41.7 SRM

Kettle Efficiency (as in EIB and EAW): 69.2 %
Efficiency into Fermentor (EIF): 62.3 %

Note: This is a Pure BIAB (Full Volume Mash)

Times and Temperatures

Mash: 90 mins at 66 C = 150.8 F
Boil: 90 min
Ferment:

Volumes & Gravities
(Note that VAW below is the Volume at Flame-Out (VFO) less shrinkage.)
The, "Clear Brewing Terminology," thread at http://www.biabrewer.info/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Total Water Needed (TWN): 67.04 L = 17.71 G
Volume into Boil (VIB): 57.32 L = 15.14 G @ 1.057
Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW): 44.4 L = 11.73 G @ 1.071
Volume into Fermentor (VIF): 40 L = 10.57 G @ 1.071
Volume into Packaging (VIP): 37.04 L = 9.78 G @ 1.018 assuming apparent attenuation of 75 %

The Grain Bill (Also includes extracts, sugars and adjuncts)

Note: If extracts, sugars or adjuncts are not followed by an exclamation mark, go to http://www.biabrewer.info" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; (needs link)

54.1% Pale Ale (5 EBC = 2.5 SRM) 8323 grams = 18.35 pounds
2.3% Crystal 100 (100 EBC = 50.8 SRM) 347 grams = 0.76 pounds
34.6% Munich (18 EBC = 9.1 SRM) 5317 grams = 11.72 pounds
3.4% Roasted Barley (1100 EBC = 558.4 SRM) 525 grams = 1.16 pounds
3.4% Carafa 2 (1100 EBC = 558.4 SRM) 525 grams = 1.16 pounds
2.3% Cookie (50 EBC = 25.4 SRM) 347 grams = 0.76 pounds



The Hop Bill (Based on Tinseth Formula)

68.1 IBU chinook Pellets (11%AA) 122.4 grams = 4.316 ounces at 90 mins
0 IBU cascade Pellets (4.8%AA) 81.8 grams = 2.885 ounces at 0 mins







Mash Steps

Mash Type: Pure BIAB (Full-Volume Mash): Saccharifiaction for 90 mins at 66 C = 150.8 F
Water Held Back from Mash: 10 L = 2.64 G
0





Water Added After Final Lauter: 10 L = 2.64 G



Miscellaneous Ingredients








Chilling & Hop Management Methods

Hopsock Used: Y



Fermentation & Conditioning

Fermentation: US-05









Special Instructions/Notes on this Beer



BIAB Variations

Water Held Back from Mash: 10 L = 2.64 G

Water Added After Final Lauter: 10 L = 2.64 G
Last edited by onkeltuka on 02 Apr 2015, 17:16, edited 1 time in total.
"The rules for making hop additions during the boil are about as well defined as those for a knife fight." -Stan Hieronymus

Post #8 made 3 years ago
First up onke, I need to know if you read those three posts I linked above. If so, did they answer your questions?

....

If you have read those posts, you'll now know what differences (and the pros and cons) that will occur if you choose to move the 10L from 'Water Added before the Boil' to 'Water Used in a Sparge'. See Section W

If you haven't read those posts and the sub-links in them, it is important to not play with Section W because you will not be aware of the repercussions of doing so.

:interesting:
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Post #9 made 3 years ago
I am also interested in "cookie", is that a malt or are you grinding up some marylands?
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Post #11 made 3 years ago
Yes PP I read through the posts you linked. So I'm basically having a quite a poor efficiency, wasting malts so to speak? Actually I've been building a cooler mash tun (embarrassed to admit it!) just because of this problem, that it seems difficult to get over 40 liter VIF batches with my biab- system. Because in the long run it gets quite expensive to use this much malts. BIABicus tells me to use about 15.4 kg's of malts for 40 liters of this wort and BeerSmith calculates 12.9 kg's if mashed in a 66- liter cooler. Off course, it's a lot more hassle and equipment and all, I know, but the only other option I can think of is a giant 100+ liter kettle and a burner to match.

Mally, the cookie malt is a new product from "our" Scandinavian maltster Viking Malt. http://www.vikingmalt.com/?id=25 I just don't understand why they list the EBC as "40-60"? I think it's quite similar to Biscuit or Victory.
"The rules for making hop additions during the boil are about as well defined as those for a knife fight." -Stan Hieronymus

Post #12 made 3 years ago
onkeltuka wrote:So I'm basically having a quite a poor efficiency, wasting malts so to speak?
No, your efficiency is fine. What you have forgotten is that this is a very big beer with an OG of 1.071. The BIABacus, unlike all other brewing software, lowers your kettle efficiency for high gravity beers and raises it for low gravity beers. (Change the gravity in Section B and watch what happens in Section P.)
onkeltuka wrote:Actually I've been building a cooler mash tun (embarrassed to admit it!) just because of this problem, that it seems difficult to get over 40 liter VIF batches with my biab- system. Because in the long run it gets quite expensive to use this much malts. BIABicus tells me to use about 15.4 kg's of malts for 40 liters of this wort and BeerSmith calculates 12.9 kg's if mashed in a 66- liter cooler.
BeerSmith is telling you that because it assumes yu will get the same kettle efficiency on a big beer as a small beer which is incorrect.

Post both your .bsm file here and your BIABacus file and I'll be able to explain more. At the moment I don't even know what size kettle you have so it's a bit hard. Suffice to say for now that changing software and equipment will not magically give you better efficiency on big or small beers, in fact, you'll get a nasty shock on your first brew. Let's have a look at your files onke.

;)
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 03 Apr 2015, 20:26, edited 1 time in total.
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