Does this recipe have integrity? Can I copy it?

Post #1 made 5 years ago
Most brewers, at least to begin with, copy their recipes from another source. Unfortunately, there are very few sources of high integrity recipes, recipes that can be copied well.

Examples of low and high integrity recipes can be found in this post. Please read it before posting here. Once you have read that post, please do one of the following...
Place a direct link to the recipe you wish to copy/scale.
OR
Provide all the information you have on the original recipe. AND
If you have the recipe in some sort of file format, please post it.

We'll write more information to the beginning of this thread when we have the time. For now, we'll leave you in the hands of some members very skilled in this area.

BB
Last edited by BIABrewer on 06 Jan 2013, 22:42, edited 2 times in total.

Sv: Does this recipe have integrity? Can I copy it?

Post #4 made 5 years ago
Hi all! My second post here!

My first brewing attempt will be this weekend. I will try to brew a BIAB (what else?) kilkenny ale-clone.

I will be brewing in a 29l electrical urn (bielmeier). I have stumbled across a recipe and converted it to my equipment in beersmith.

Does it look reasonable? I posted the same question on a swedish forum and had remarks about the high percentage of the roasted barley.

Here in Sweden there's two versions of the kilkenny, one stout that's more creamy than the ale that I'm trying to brew. Don't know what versions there is out there in the rest of the world, all I know is that the Irish hates it :-)

Type: All Grain Date: 2012-12-01
Batch Size (fermenter): 16,00 l Brewer: Joco
Boil Size: 19,64 l Asst Brewer:
Boil Time: 60 min Equipment: Plastis
End of Boil Volume 16,64 l Brewhouse Efficiency: 73,00 %
Final Bottling Volume: 15,00 l Est Mash Efficiency 73,0 %
Fermentation: Ale, Two Stage Taste Rating(out of 50): 30,0
Taste Notes:
Ingredients


Ingredients
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
3,38 kg Pale Malt, Maris Otter (5,9 EBC) Grain 1 87,7 %
0,16 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L (78,8 EBC) Grain 2 4,1 %
0,16 kg Caramel/Crystal Malt -120L (236,4 EBC) Grain 3 4,1 %
0,16 kg Roasted Barley (591,0 EBC) Grain 4 4,1 %
29,98 g Goldings, East Kent [5,00 %] - Boil 60,0 min Hop 5 24,9 IBUs
1,0 pkg Irish Ale Yeast (White Labs #WLP004) Yeast 6 -

Beer Profile

Est Original Gravity: 1,054 SG Measured Original Gravity: 1,046 SG
Est Final Gravity: 1,014 SG Measured Final Gravity: 1,010 SG
Estimated Alcohol by Vol: 5,3 % Actual Alcohol by Vol: 4,7 %
Bitterness: 24,9 IBUs Calories: 427,1 kcal/l
Est Color: 38,9 EBC
Mash Profile

Mash Name: BIAB, Medium Body Total Grain Weight: 3,85 kg
Sparge Water: 0,00 l Grain Temperature: 22,2 C
Sparge Temperature: 75,6 C Tun Temperature: 22,2 C
Adjust Temp for Equipment: TRUE Mash PH: 5,20






Skickat från min R800i via Tapatalk 2
Bottled: Ruabeoir, Dry Stout, American amber, Green Bullet/Vienna SMaSH, Black Bear IPA.
Fermenting: Empty (!)
Planned: Dodeca, Laphroaig oak ale.

Post #5 made 5 years ago
Welcome to the forum Joco :thumbs:.

Well done to Sweden for being the first to post here. And, it's an ideal recipe to post here :salute:.

The first thing I'm looking for here, very quickly, are any obvious number discrepancies. I can see some so this gives me an indication that the recipe source may not be reliable. What is of most initial importance though are the ingredients.

At this stage, I pull out, "Brewing Classic Styles," by Jamil Zainasheff and John Palmer. I've looked up Irish Red Ale and I can see that your recipe is actually a copy of their recipe called, 'Ruabeoir.'

So, that's great that the ingredients have integrity. (Not great that John or Jamil have not been acknowledged though :dunno:).

The only thing that remains is for you to work out how to scale the recipe to suit your equipment. (This is one of the discrepancies I noticed above.) There's a quick, easy, accurate and safe way of doing this and there is a long, hard, inaccurate and dangerous way.

BIABrewer.info tried very hard for many months to simplify the last way. You can see one of these attempts here. In the end they gave up as did I and I have every program under the sun!

Anyway, your recipe ingredients have integrity. Some of the numbers don't. The good news is it can be copied :thumbs:.

Let us know if you want us to scale it for you. I think this would be a good idea.

Nice post Joco,
PP

[EDIT: See this post for some extra info on scaling Jamil and John recipes.]
Last edited by PistolPatch on 08 Jan 2013, 21:56, edited 3 times in total.
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Post #7 made 5 years ago
No problems Joco :peace:.

Now that we know the recipe is actually worth copying, I'll scale it in the Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment... thread.

It's very late here now so I won't do it tonight. When I do it tomorrow, I'll be using the BIABacus to copy/scale the recipe. You can get the version I'll be using here. If you get enthusiastic, download it, fill in a few of the fields and post your copy to the above thread.

Don't be scared off by how big it looks. Just focus on the white sunken fields. It's actually a bit of fun filling in the numbers as you can see lots of things change as you put the numbers in :). If you make any errors, I or someone else will quickly be able to find them. (There's also a bit of a help thread written here.)

If you don't get a chance to do the above, I'll PM you once I have scaled/posted your recipe.

:peace:
PP

P.S. This is a very lucky start to this thread. Most recipes have heaps more problems :smoke:. (Thanks Jamil and John for the above recipe ;))
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Post #8 made 5 years ago
Hi, i am gearing up to my first BIAB and I have a recipe and the ingredients. I have tried messing around with the spreadsheet but I cannot make any sense of it.

If the following suitable for BIAB and my main concern is what the initial water volume would need to be to account for grain absorption and evaporation. Thanks in advance.


Sierra Nevada Pale Ale
American Pale Ale

Type: All Grain This is an all grain recipe rather than an extract, the grains have to be mashed, more later
Batch Size: 22.71 L Amount of beer that will be drinkable as an end product
Boil Size: 26.01 L Amount of wort collected that's needed at the start of the boil because of evaporation
Boil Time: 60 min Time needed for the boil, some recipes call for 60 mins some 90
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.% The percentage of the sugar in the grains that has been turned into alcohol in the final product

Ingredients

Amount Item Type % or IBU
5.45 kg Lager Malt or Lower Colour Maris Otter These are the grains that need mashing
0.45 kg Light Caramel/Crystal Malt - 40L These grains can also go in the mash tun although they can go into the boiler without any detriment to the final product
30.00 gm Northern Brewer (60 min) Hops 38.7 IBU Thirty grams of Northern brewer hops go into the wort as soon as it starts to boil. 38.7 IBU is the amount of bitterness the hops add to the wort.
30.00 gm Cascade (10 min) Hops 5.0 IBU Thirty grams of Cascade hops are added to the boil 10 minutes before the end
70.00 gm Cascade (1 min) Hops 9.7 IBU Seventy grams of Cascade hops are added to the boil with just 1 minute to go
1 Pkgs SafAle US-05 Yeast This is the yeast used to ferment the beer. Different yeast produces different flavour in the beer. US-05 allows the flavour of the hops to shine through

Beer Profile

Measured Original Gravity: 1.053 SG The gravity shows the amount of fermentable sugar in the beer. Here it is measured before the yeast is added
Measured Final Gravity: 1.010 SG This is the gravity of the beer after the ferment. A simple calculation allows the alcohol percentage to be worked out
Actual Alcohol by Vol: 5.60 % The yeast turns the sugar to alcohol making the final product 5.6% alcohol
Bitterness: 53.4 IBU Different syles of beer have different amonts of bitterness. This beer is quite bitter but correct for the style
Est Color: 6.2 SRM SRM is a unit to measure colour, its the same as the EBC rating you will see next to the malts for sale. This is a very pale ale

Post #9 made 5 years ago
[Sorry RW for the book below but I thought it better to answer your question thoroughly. Go and grab yourself a beer :P.]

Welcome to the forum RW :peace:,

Lots of detail in that post so good on you :salute:. Let's have a look and see if we get lucky...

The thread title here is currently a bit vague but the intention of it is to test if a particular recipe you have found somewhere has enough information to be copied/scaled. So, in this thread we firstly look at the numbers and then, if we get that far, we can try to look at the actual ingredients.

I realise that your main question is about volumes. I'll write a postscript on this.

Analysis

Okay, the grain bill is scaleable and therefore can be copied with high integrity. Most grain bills can be as all we need is an original gravity and the weights or percentages of the grains. I don't think we are going to get lucky on the hops though.

As always, the hop bill is where we usually find a problem. In this recipe report, the hop bill contains weight of the addition and an IBU contribution for each addition. Without further information, the integrity (scaleability) of the hop bill is low to medium at best. Why on earth is that?

Integrity Problems

The above recipe relies totally on hop IBU estimates for it's scaleability. This is a problem for two reasons...

1. Three major hop IBU estimate formulas are commonly used (Garetz, Rager and Tinseth.) Unfortunately, all these formulas give different answers. Have a look at the three right hand columns of the following screenshot to see just how massively different these estimates can be :argh:.
Beersmith 2 Hop Estimate Formulas.JPG
2. A lot of programs, including some major ones, have errors in their hop formulas. This further decreases the ability to be able to rely on IBU estimates.

The two problems above are not known by most brewers so don't be surprised if this is the first you have heard of them.[/b]...

(One additional note: There is a third integrity problem regarding volumes in the recipe report which lowers my trust level in the recipe. The difference between 'Boil Size' and 'Batch Size'. Batch Size can mean anything these days but in this case, it has at least been defined as what we call, 'Volume into Packaging'. However, the difference between the two numbers is way too small.)

What Should We Do Now?

There are several ways we can go about trying to improve the integrity of this recipe. These involve trying to find the answers to the following questions which is often impossible. In this particular case, if we can find the answer to some or all of the following questions we can make some headway...

1. What program was used to calculate the IBU's?
2. Was Rager, Garetz or the Tinseth formula used?
3. What was the alpha acid percentage of the hops used?
4. What was the End of Boil Volume of the recipe once cooled to ambient temperatures?

So there's a lot of questions above we probably can't find the answers to.

If the answers to these questions are too hard to find, don't worry about it as we can soon give you a recipe for Sierra Nevada that will certainly get you up and running.

By the way, where did the recipe report come from? While there's some info missing and a few things in it that need better definitions, there's actually a lot of positives to it as well.

;)
PP

Postscript on Volume Question

Only two things are needed for us to estimate your volumes. These are the original gravity which we have and the evaporation rate which we don't have. Until you do a few brews, it's hard to know your evaporation rate as it's dependent on a lot of things. We use a formula here based on kettle diameter to estimate evaporation rate for your first few brews.

Below, I have attached a BIABacus file that just looks at volumes. All you need to do is change the first field in Section B to whatever your kettle diameter is and then all your volume estimates will appear on the right in Section O. (You can also change the 'Boil Time' and 'Volume into Fermentor' numbers as well if you like.)
BIABacus PR1.1 -Volume Estimates - RWilts.xls
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Post #10 made 5 years ago
PP What a great reply. Thanks for taking the time. Will have to read it several times to get the full meaning but the Spreadsheet is very usefull. I have 50L pot with 40 cm diameter, work it out at 38.37 L .

One follow up question. The MASH VOLUME includes the grain bill, yes?

Thanks again :thumbs:

Post #11 made 5 years ago
I love good posts/questions Rw. You got stuck with me unfortunately though which means you have to read a lot :roll:. On another day, you might have scored a brewer who gets the same message across in a tenth of the time :lol:.

Anyway, the Mash Volume does include the grain bill. If you are having a beer, maybe have a look at the pic here. There's a lot of detail in it, maybe too much? But, it's a visual representation of the brewing process and some hopefully fast-to-learn terminology a few brewers here have developed.

You also wrote...
Rwilts wrote:Will have to read it several times to get the full meaning...
To me, that's the perfect reply. 99% of readers will just scan that post and then look for 'faster' information. That post actually contains the answers to some questions I couldn't find the answers to for years no matter where I looked. "Slowing down to speed up," is what you are doing.

Very nice :champ:,
PP

P.S. Don't hesitate to ask more questions. A lot can probably be answered quickly and the ones that can't will help everyone.
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Post #12 made 5 years ago
PP,

not to perpetuate this discussion but i realised I hadn't answered your question. The recipe is from a member of Jim Beer Kit forum. I actually got it from a supplier here in the UK who sells the grain and hops pre bundled for this recipe.

Having made 17 Kit beers in 2012 , my plan is to move to AG BIAB this year and had a fair amount of new kit for Christmas. I wanted to make the grain and hop selection as easy as possible for my first go.

As to the picture you linked to Its now the wallpaper on my phone :salute: (as long as thats allowed!).

I will give the recipe a go next week, I have more hops than the amounts listed so will add a few more than stated , keep some detailed notes and see what I get at the end :thumbs:

Post #13 made 5 years ago
Rwilts, I must have got busy or something when you made the above post sorry. That is great wallpaper for your phone :thumbs:. Please start a new thread when you taste your brew. I love reading those. I've just got back from a few weeks holiday and during that time, I received another great question like yours. I'm overdue for a long post so here you go ;)...

The Recipe in Question

Easiest thing to do here is copy and paste the correspondence...
Hello PP, this is the British Bitter recipe that I was asking you about recently, from 'Dave Miller's Homebrewing Guide'. It is for '5 Gallons of beer' (US gallons), which I know you'll have problems with straight away! Any way, I'll quote the piece in full and see what you think - I'd love to use recipes from this book, because it's been a great source of info for me-

'This recipe is for a low gravity session bitter. Hopping can be varied according to taste. You can experiment with adjuncts or sugar, both of which are frequently used in Great Britain.

5lbs. British Pale ale malt
8oz. British Crystal malt
Bittering hops: 7 AAU pellets or 8.5 AAU whole hops-Golding, Fuggle, or Northern Brewer
Finishing hops: 1oz. Golding

Brewer's Specifics:-
OG 1.038
31 IBU
Terminal gravity 1.006-1.009'

The rest of the piece is about cask-conditioning etc., and isn't relevant to this...
Why it's a great question...

There are many reasons why the above is a great question. The most important reason for me is that it comes from a book. Printed word carries a lot of weight in our minds. We are conditioned to believe that any sort of technical print will be trustworthy, useful and accurate.

I don't want to explain the reasons why this is generally not the case in the brewing fraternity. That would actually take a book in itself. The only relevant point to make is that if brewers, new or old, see something that doesn't seem to make sense on a forum or in a printed book, they are probably asking the right questions.

What's right with this recipe?

The grain bill has integrity as it gives us a ratio* of the grains and an original gravity. They are the only things we ever need for a grain bill but, incredibly, some recipes even miss that.

*It would have been nicer of the author had given us percentages as well as weights in his recipe but we can, at least, work the ratio of grains out. Any good recipe or recipe report should give as much info as possible without cluttering things. On a grain bill however, if you can only give one number, percentages of grains used are the most valuable.
What's wrong with this recipe? It should be very easy for any of us to publish a recipe and have our fellow brewers copy it well. Any new brewer to the game would think and expect this.

But!...

It is not the case. There are very few books and no software I have seen, besides the BIABacus, that currently allows this :roll:.

I have spent a lot of my 'all-grain life' thinking that I have been missing something obvious information that every other brewer miraculously sees when they look at a recipe (and many other things). It's taken a lot of years, study and communications with other brewers to realise I wasn't the only one missing something obvious.

So...

What do you think is wrong with this recipe?

Instead of me outlining the reasons why this recipe can't be copied, it might be better if other brewers, new or old, post here as to what they think is wrong with this recipe.

I can see three problems on the terminology side straight away. Are you seeing them too?

The hop bill side is atrocious. Anything there making you scratch your head?

Apologies for a 'school-teachery' type post but I wish someone had pointed out to me, years ago, that most stuff you see, recipe wise, in books, let on the net, is actually useless.

What would be great and maybe a bit of fun...

I write too much long stuff here trying to cover every single point (if I think I know the answer :dunno:). That's time-consuming for me and boring for you.

Maybe anyone who has read this far might like to take a crack at naming one of the problems in this recipe. What was the problem and why is it a problem when it comes to copying the recipe?

Cheers,
PP

P.S. Just received the following PM from skink
And no, I've absolutely no problem with you using my name - a problem shared is a problem halved, and I'm sure plenty of other people have encountered this problem.
Nice :salute:
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Post #14 made 5 years ago
Instead of me outlining the reasons why this recipe can't be copied, it might be better if other brewers, new or old, post here as to what they think is wrong with this recipe.
Having a quick scan;
I love the term Batch size :lol:, However;
No IBU formula mentioned
Which efficiency used?
Mash temp?
Were there only 3?
Last edited by mally on 05 Feb 2013, 03:26, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #15 made 5 years ago
PistolPatch wrote:Maybe anyone who has read this far might like to take a crack at naming one of the problems in this recipe. What was the problem and why is it a problem when it comes to copying the recipe?


The hops are the killer. Even though the recipe quotes the hops in AAU we don't know what formula was used or boil times so it would be a total guess. Assumptions could be made but it isn't worth the hassle for a basic bitter recipe. Best to pass this one by and look else where.

:shoot:

Yeasty
Last edited by Yeasty on 05 Feb 2013, 07:03, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #17 made 5 years ago
In fairness to the author, he does explain the hops scenario elsewhere. When he says 7 AAU hops, he means 1oz. of hops of 7%, or 2oz. of 3.5%, and so on. Why he then doesn't follow the same terminology for the finishing hops, I don't know. I think his whole reasoning behind not giving hopping schedules is that he wants his reader to experiment, but I see the other problems as well, such as not saying whether 5 gallons is volume into packaging, or whatever. It's just a shame that I have a book that's taught me a lot but doesn't give recipes that are specific enough.

Post #18 made 5 years ago
[A lot of this post is for advanced BIABacus users so don't be worried if it makes no sense to you. I will put a conclusion at the end that will note whether we have been able to 'crack' this recipe or not.]

Firstly, thanks guys for following on from my last post here. Not sure if I was tired, drunk or both. Seeing as I slept for 12 hrs straight after work yesterday, probably both :P. I hope I made some sense in that post :?.

mally, yep, there are a lot more than three problems :). Great to see you guys were able to quickly find some the big crackers :). Now I'm wondering...

Can we still help skink?

I know from skink's posts/PM's that he would really like to make sense of the recipes in this book. Now that we have some more info on the hop side of things, maybe we can create some order here?

One of the best things about the BIABAcus is that the design allows it to act as a brilliant 'recipe detective'. We'll be able to do some things here in less than a minute that would be impossible in other programs or would take pen and paper, at least 15 minutes probably and high concentration levels.

The most important number we need in any recipe is...

The End of Boil Volume at Ambient (EOBV-A)

Assuming no water dilutions or fermentable additions are made post-boil, the EOBV-A figure is the first point at which the brew becomes stabilised. The gravity willnot change until pitching and the theoretical hop bitterness estimate will also not change.

The only volume figure the author gives us is a "batch" size of 5 gallons. As mally and skink mentioned, this could mean EOBV-A, Volume into Fermentor (VIF) or Volume into Packaging (VIP). Can the BIABacus help us make a good guess at the EOBV-A?
Detecting EOBV-A (Advanced BIABacus Use) Once you become aware of the problems with most published recipes you will probably also begin to see some of the ways in which the BIABacus can help you make accurate or good guesses where information is lacking. The BIABAcus can also help you make the decision to abandon a recipe.

As mentioned above, the first number we need for recipe integrity is EOBV-A. There are two main ways we can use the BIABacus to investigate EOBV-A when it is lacking...

Working with Section C - The Grain Bill

Three numbers are needed to determine EOBV-A from a grain bill. We need the grain bill weight, the original gravity and preferably the 'Efficiency into Kettle (EIK)' or 'End of Boil Efficiency (EOBE)'. Unfortunately, we only have two of these things.

When an efficiency figure is missing, we can still often make some sense ot the recipe. For example, we can reasonable expect EIK and EOBE to be somewhere between 70 and 80%. Let's investigate this...

Recipe detective work using the grain bill essentially involves making the left hand weights in Section C equal the right hand weights in Section C. Notice how I have 2495 grams on the left and 2428 grams on the right? That's close enough for our purposes.

The next thing to note is that I have juggled VIF in Section B so that EOBV-A in Section K reads 5.00 Gal. But...

...here's the cracker...

Go to Section X and you'll see that I have had to use a 100% EIK to get the left and tight hand sides balancing :shock:.

This tells me straight away that there is a big integrity problem on the grain bill side. If I juggle the numbers so that say, VIP was 5.00 Gal then the problem becomes even worse.

Something is very wrong here.

Working with Section D - The Hop Bill

To determine EOBV-A from the hop bill requires. We need the weights, times and AA% of the hop additions as well as the total IBU's using the correct Tinseth formula. It is extremely rare to know what IBU formula has been used and whether it was written correctly. We don't have much info to go on in this recipe but let's see if the BIABacus can tell us anything...

The first thing I've done is guessed that the bittering hops were added at 60 minutes (a lot of books do this) and the finishing hops were added at 15 mins.

There are a few things I can do now. I can type in a few different numbers into the EOBV-A field on the first line of Section D until the estimated IBU's at the bottom read 31. 27.1 L gets this to happen.

The other thing I can do is type 18.92 into that field (the EOBV-A that shows in Section K and then type 31 into the second line of Section D. Doing this, you'll see that the weights on the left and right hand side do not balance - they are not even close.

Either something is also very wrong here or the Tinseth hop formula has not been used in the book.
Conclusion Our further investigation into this recipe using the 'recipe detective' capabilities of the BIABacus show us that the recipe lacks integrity in even more ways than we thought.

I read somewhere that this author also recommended using your mouth to start a syphon. I think given the above skink, you'll just have to accept that this particular book may have given you all the value it can and it's now time for it to go to the back of the shelf or maybe even the bin.

What to Do Now

My highest recommendation for y ou and anyone else who wants a sound recipe book is to invest in "Brewing Classic Styles," by John Palmer and Zamil Zainasheff. These recipes are sound, solid, award-winning recipes that can be put into the BIABacus by simply typing 22.7 L into the EOBV-A field on the first line of Section D. Simple :champ:.

The other thing to do is start a thread here called, "Standard/Ordinary Bitter Recipe Required". There's some great guys here to help you with this. Maybe there are een some recipes already here :scratch:.

Once again, a great question skink. Sorry there was no happy ending but I think your question would have been educational for lots of others here so good on you.

:salute:
PP

P.S. Won't be able to grammar and spell check the above until later. Hopefully there is nothing glaring.
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Post #19 made 5 years ago
Oh well... Anyway, once again, many thanks, PP. In the meantime, Lambert has posted up a link to some of Jamil's recipes, and I can see that solving many of my problems.

Post #20 made 5 years ago
Hi again! My Ruabeoir is now Bottled and I cant wait for the result... But, While waiting, what could be better than to make a new brew? I was planning to make a Stout this time, and I found this recipe that was higly praised for it´s taste, my question is; Does it have Integrity so I can scale it?

I´ll try my best to translate it from Swedish:

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Boil Size: 24 l
Batch Size (fermenter): 20,00 l
Estimated OG: 1,053 SG
Estimated Color: 92,9 EBC
Estimated IBU: 43,2 IBUs

Ingredients:
------------
Amt Name Type # %/IBU
3,00 kg Viking Pale Ale (4,6 EBC) Grain 1 60,0 %
0,50 kg unmalted flaked barley (preboil 30 min) (2,6 EBC) Grain 2 10,0 %
0,50 kg Viking Münichmalt (18,0 EBC) Grain 3 10,0 %
0,50 kg Viking roasted barley (1400,0 EBC) Grain 4 10,0 %
0,25 kg NilsOscar malted oats (2,0 EBC) Grain 5 5,0 %
0,25 kg Viking Wheat Malt (5,0 EBC) Grain 6 5,0 %
45,00 g Goldings, East Kent [5,00 %] - Boil 60,0 Hop 7 26,7 IBUs
45,00 g Goldings, East Kent [5,00 %] - Boil 20,0 Hop 8 16,5 IBUs
10,00 g Irish Moss (Boil 10,0 mins) Fining 9 -
1,0 pkg Irish Ale Yeast (White Labs #WLP004) Yeast

Saccharification 67,0 C 90 min
Mash Out 76 C 10 min

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

This time I was thinking about to make a full 23l VIF-batch, would that be possible with my 35 diameter/30 cm hight kettle? If the recipe can be scaled....

Please tell me if anything is inconprehensible as I´m aware of that my English isn´t the best :)
Bottled: Ruabeoir, Dry Stout, American amber, Green Bullet/Vienna SMaSH, Black Bear IPA.
Fermenting: Empty (!)
Planned: Dodeca, Laphroaig oak ale.

Post #21 made 5 years ago
Your English is great Joco :peace:,

In this recipe, as with most recipes, the main problem is the lack of information on what the 'End of Boil Volume at Ambient (EOBV-A)' is. I think we can work with this recipe though...

I've used the advanced BIABacus techniques mentioned in my last post here to explore what the author most likely means by 'batch size'. The numbers balance well enough when I assume he means EOBV-A, rather than VIF or VIP. There's certainly nothing major there to worry me.

So, now that we have made a reasonable guess that the EOBV-A of this recipe is 23 litres, we are good to go in scaling it.
Joco wrote:This time I was thinking about to make a full 23l VIF-batch, would that be possible with my 35 diameter/30 cm height kettle?
This is possible but I'm not sure whether it would be advisable. I've set up a BIABAcus file for you to explore and I will post it in the Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment... thread. I have to leave now so won't be able to do this until much later today.

While you are waiting for that, have a read of these posts on the practicalities of Maxi-BIAB...

This post and the summary at the end of this post.

Will PM you when I've posted the file in the other thread. See you there,
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 08 Feb 2013, 09:29, edited 2 times in total.
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Sv: Does this recipe have integrity? Can I copy it?

Post #22 made 5 years ago
That's brilliant P.P, the links were very helpful! Now I understand a bit more about sparging, dilution and the maxi-biab lingo.

As someone else stated in the later thread "all beginners should read this".

I'm actually a bit ashamed that I didn't pay more attention to that post before as I have been reading that thread several times.
Bottled: Ruabeoir, Dry Stout, American amber, Green Bullet/Vienna SMaSH, Black Bear IPA.
Fermenting: Empty (!)
Planned: Dodeca, Laphroaig oak ale.

Post #23 made 5 years ago
Joco, I've just put the file up and some notes here. By the way, don't be ashamed at missing those posts. They make a lot more sense once you actually have the question in your mind. Before that they just look like a long ramble and they often are :lol:.

When one of us can get them down to a short ramble, the new site structure should make that sort of info much easier to find when the question does come to mind.

Btw, two other things I should have mentioned were...

1. This thread doesn't look very much at recipe structure. It more looks at whether a recipe is worth considering. I'm not very skilled at recipe structure but I can't see anything obviously wrong with the recipe so unless someone else comments otherwise, I think all is good.

2. The recipe actually was about as good, information-wise, as you'll ever get on the net. For example, having the EBC of the grains in a recipe can be a big help. It not only helps you determine what grain to buy (so many grains have multiple names) but in this case, I was also able to use the BIABacus to make a third confirmation of what EOBV-A number to use in the BIABacus. (I'll write some advanced notes on this below. Nearly all members should ignore those advanced notes. If you are game, maybe read the conclusion?)

Cheers,
PP
Using colour to determine EOBV-A of an external recipe (Advanced BIABAcus Use) One big difference between skink's external recipe we looked at earlier and Joco's one is that Joco's recipe has EBC values. When using the BIABAcus as a 'recipe detective', colour can also give us information on what the EOBV-A might be. Often it is a lot more valuable tool than hop bitterness as we don't have the problem of the three different hop estimate formulas - Rager, Garetz and Tinseth. (There are still several problems though with colour - of course :roll:)

Using Section C, D and Colour to Investigate EOBV-A

In the file I just posted for Joco here in the 'How to convert recipes to suit your equipment...' thread, you'll notice that the EBC's on the left hand side of Section C read 84.4 whilst Joco's recipe report reads 92.9 EBC.

If you change EOBV-A in Section D, the 84.4 will change. For example, drop it to 20 litres and it will equal 92.9 EBC. (You'll also notice the IBU estimate on the left of Section D now will read 44.6 which is a close match to Joco's recipe's 43.2 IBU's. It's about a 4% difference and I'll mention this again below.)

Does this help us in this case?

There's a reason why I wrote 'Advanced BIABacus Use' as a header :P. Recipe investigation is very difficult as it requires a knowledge of many different programs and their errors. So, don't expect any of the following to make sense unless you are an old 'numbers' hand here.

If we go with an EOBV-A of 20 L in Section D, we need to set our auto-efficiency to 92% to get the grain bill matching on the left and right. (Make sure you delete all the Maxi-BIAB numbers first.)

92% is a bit high but not an unreasonable EIK figure for a 1.053 gravity full-volume BIAB and I would have no problem with a BIABacus recipe report that had these numbers but here's what I'm guessing based on experience with various programs...

If you now set KFL in Section X to 3 litres (and delete the 92% you may have typed in above), you'll get the colour and IBU's matching well and an EIF of 72.2%. This matches up very well with the errors in BeerSmith1 and I suspect the report comes from BS1 or a program that has copied those formulas.

There are some 4% volume errors in BS1 so notice how 72.2 * 1.04 = 75%? This is a typical 'brewhouse' efficiency figure used in BeerSmith1. But, the main errors are that the colour and IBU formulas are based on VIF instead of EOBV-A. The latter errors have been fixed (from memory) in BS2 but there are some 4% ones still existing.

Conclusion

For the above reasons, I am sticking with an EOBV-A of 23 litres in Section D for Joco. Unless we know the original program the recipe report came from and own that program, we can't be 100% sure my guess is correct but I'd put money on it being the right one. I'm guessing the original author used BeerSmith1 and set their equipment profile up as 75% 'Brewhouse' Efficiency and their losses to trub and chiller in the BS profile were about 3 L.

Joco's recipe report is about as good as they get. It's a great example of how just a few missing critical bits of information/terminology and incorrect formulas can lead to immediate and large recipe integrity problems. If the above recipe report just had two simple terms, 'Volume into Fermentor' and 'Kettle to Fermentor Loss' reported, none of this detection work would be necessary. Go figure :roll:.

Does the above make any sense to you more advanced users?

The above took a while to write but the actual detection work took about 10 minutes. When we started this project, 'solving' the above recipe used to take three screens with multiple tabs, notes on paper and a few hours. Often by the time you got everything set up, you would have had too many beers and would have to start again the next day :smoke:.

Happy days :lol:,
PP

P.S. Despite this being a long post, we still haven't looked at some other colour problems. For example, there is modern and old EBC to consider. It would have been nice if brewers had got teetotallers to come up with the standards eh?
Last edited by PistolPatch on 08 Feb 2013, 21:54, edited 2 times in total.
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Post #24 made 5 years ago
Nice post PP. Another tool to help us detectives :shoot: Things are definitely easier to work out with the biabacus than with the calculator. I was hoping to have a look into that Dave Miller recipe a bit more as when I first saw it I had few theories that got lost in the bottom of a glass. I'll have to find some time to have another look.

:peace:

Yeasty
Why is everyone talking about "Cheese"
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Post #25 made 5 years ago
:lol: on the bottom of the glass bit. I'm hearing you brother :smoke:.

As a follow up to Joco's recipe above, he was able to chase the original recipe author up and get a screen shot for us here of the 'true' original recipe. There were two discrepancies I've noted here.

Everything balances now :thumbs:.

Those two little discrepancies make a big difference and highlight yet another pitfall of recipe integrity....

A lot of brewers get a recipe from a forum environment. In these environments, recipes get copied, pasted, adjusted etc by any number of posters and distortions (and typos) happen all the time. Unless you have direct access to the original recipe author you really are flying blind. This is one of the reasons why the BIABacus has a 'BIABrewer Link' and a 'Recipe Credits' field in Sections A and B. These really are critical fields.

...

One of the most useful bits of information from a Recipe Report is knowing the program that generated it. In this case, thanks to Joco's diligence, we were able to determine that the recipe report was from BeerSmtih2. If I'd known that, we would have been able to say, "Something is not right here."

In most forum cases, this is not possible.

Joco's recipe is a great example of why the BIABacus has been designed to actually force the user to answer the following question...
"What was the 'End of Boil Volume at Ambient Temperature(EOBV-A) of the recipe you are copying or trying to scale?

If you can't find that answer in the book, forum or software report you are using, the recipe you are wanting to copy/scale (and that you will then post onto someone else) is totally open to distortion and a major loss of integrity.
There's absolutely no way around avoiding this question. And this is just the most basic one when you wish to communicate a recipe well.

Great post/s Joco :peace:,
PP

Some More Advanced Stuff

Probably one of the first questions that Yeasty, me and any other 'recipe detectives' should be asking is, "Do you know what program (book) the recipe report came from?". For now, I only think it will help us in working out BeerSmith1 versus Beersmith2 recipes but a lot of software mimics BeerSmith and so will contain those same common errors*. All programs, besides the BIABacus, require a complex, inflexible and therefore inaccurate equipment profile set-up. The only good thing about this for us is that most users of any such software will type in 75 as their 'efficiency' figure. It's up to us to guess whether they have allowed for kettle trub or just typed a zero.

* Another thing that Joco's recipe prompted was that maybe the BeerSmith2 error of working from pre-boil volume on the bitterness estimate formulas might have now been corrected? That'll take three screens and a few hours of looking at the bottom of a glass to determine. Well, not that long but it's a low priority atm.
Last edited by PistolPatch on 10 Feb 2013, 23:24, edited 2 times in total.
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