Post #2 made 2 years ago
Rickoles, those Recipes will take a lot of Guess's to brew, as the is No IBU Number, and Unless you have a Money Tree, the Hop Bill, may Cost more than the Grain Bill.
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I hope PP, does not see this Catalog of Recipes......
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Last edited by joshua on 26 Feb 2016, 08:56, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #3 made 2 years ago
Hey Joshua - The IBU and OG are in the top right of each recipe. The only thing it's missing is the AA and specific type of grains used although both of these things aren't such a big deal.
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Post #4 made 2 years ago
So can the VAW for each recipe be derived from the given water quantities?

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Post #5 made 2 years ago
Rickoles, the IBU they give, and pretty far from what BIABACUS gives.

SheTC, it looks like the Boil Volume would be the VAW, Since it is Close to what BIABACUS shows.


Load up one of those Recipes into BIABACUS, and Quest-imate what is Missing, and see how close you get to Brew Dogs Numbers.
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Post #6 made 2 years ago
When get around to using one of their recipes I will be putting in the grain ratios, OG and using the same hop schedule. Then I will use grains with a colour that gives me the target EBC with desired flavours.

My BIAB calculator is already setup for my volumes so having the other information from Brewdog should net me a great clone.

Obviously their setup is different and the recipes aren't for BIAB so volumes will differ.
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Post #7 made 2 years ago
I try to only write, on BIABrewer, in the evening because that means I can multi-task (drink at the same time) ;). I suppose it's good to do an occasional sober post though?*

That is bloody good of the Brew Dog brewers to do that .pdf rickoles, and it's very nicely presented.

rickoles, I'll just clear a few things up, so as you can get the best from the book. Above you wrote, "the recipes aren't for BIAB so volumes will differ." This is a bit of a mis-nomer. Even if we used a three-vessel system, our volumes still would not be the same. No matter what type of all-grain recipe you get, and no matter what type of equipment you use, you always need to convert recipes to suit your equipment.

The second thing is that most home brewers have no idea that there are at least five different ways of measuring IBU's, and they all give different results. For example, IBU's can be estimated using one of three formulas (Garetz, Rager and Tinseth), or they can be measured in the laboratory, or they can even be perceived (estimated by tasting). On top of all this, a lot of software uses faulty estimation formulas so things quickly become a mess. This post has a pic and more info.

Also, read the below to get more info on the colour.
Getting the Most Out of Brew Dog's Recipes
Recipe #1 Punk IPA
As some of the guys above mentioned, there are, as in most recipes you find, critical bits of information missing. Sometimes, some things can be guessed at and at other times, there can be so much info missing, that you need to contact the brewer directly to get the missing pieces or just give up. I'll go through the first recipe in the .pdf and we'll see how we go...

Missing Malt Name and Colour

There are several "extra pale" malts around. I'm guessing, and I do mean guessing, it is this one which has a degree Lovibond of 1.5. The only colour info we get in the recipe is 8.5 SRM / 17 EBC. [EDIT: I am going to change this malt later - see way below.]

Missing AA%

The only thing we can do here (without contacting the brewer directly), is to work on the average AA% for the given hops. It's important though that you, the brewer, are aware that AA% can vary dramatically from year to year, and even from place to place in the same year! (A few years ago, there was a 6% difference in Hallertau grown in one part of Germany compared to another).

We'll use hoplist as our source of AA% info for the Ahtanum, Chinook, Crystal and Motueka hops used in the recipe. We get 5.1, 13, 3.5 and 6.9% respectively.

Missing Boil Time / Hop Addition Times

It's missing from the recipe but earlier in the .pdf they say, "We recommend 60 minute boil time for ales," so I'll use that. Boil time is important to know, in this recipe, as they do not give minute times for the hop additions; all they say is beginning middle and end.

I'll use 60, 30 and 0.

Chilling Info

This critical info is missing from most recipes but, in the Brew Dog IPA, they say they chill after flame-out as quickly as possible. That's great they provide that info.

Missing Volume of Ambient Wort (VAW)

This is missing in almost every recipe you come across, even though it is the most important volume number of all. In the Brew Dog recipe, we aren't getting too many clues to volume, but I'm going to start by assuming that, when they say, Volume 20L, that they mean VAW. In other words, the volume at flame-out once chilled to ambient is 20L.

Now, I'm going to put those numbers into the BIABacus and see what we come up with.
BIABacus PR1.3T - American IPA - Brew Dog Punk IPA 2007 to 2010 Clone Attempt - Batch A0.xls
There're a few things I did, that I won't go into, that tell me that interpreting the Boil Volume' as being the same as VAW is the best assumption to make, however, the colour is way off.

No base malt would allow you to attain a colour of 8.5 SRM / 17 EBC, so I have no idea what's going on there - typo; a missing crystal malt, a missing decimal point? That's a major discrepancy and, if my memory is correct, Punk IPA is golden, so, what to do in such a case?

Often there is nothing you can do, besides accepting that there is something definitely not right with the recipe, and then making a guess, or abandoning it to look for another.

In this case, as a matter of interest, I scrolled down to see what the next recipe is, and behold, it's another Punk IPA recipe! And, yep, that does have a crystal malt in it - caramalt. Like so many things in brewing, caramalt, is often used incorrectly. I'm just going for Baird's caramalt at 15 degrees Lovibond. I'll also change to the extra pale ale malt to Crisp, and here's what we end up with...
BIABacus PR1.3T - American IPA - Brew Dog Punk IPA 2007 to 2010 Clone Attempt 2 - Batch A0.xls
The colour still isn't close to the 8.5 SRM or 17 EBC. This could be due to an incorrect colour estimation formula, a different type of colour estimation formula being used, or, us simply guessing the malts incorrectly. There's no way of telling unless you speak to Brew Dog directly.
All you have to do now... The attached file is set up for a 50L (19 Gal) stock pot aiming to get 19 L or 5 gallons into a keg or bottles. All you need to do is change Section B to suit your kettle, and the Desired Volume into Fermentor, to whatever you want.

You can also change the boil time to 90 or 75 mins if you want, which never does any harm.

Remember, though, that there is a lot of critical info missing from the .pdf, so don't let your brain tell you that you have the 'exact' recipe!

But, even if we were able to get all the critical info, individual batches from all craft breweries change, usually only slightly, but sometimes dramatically, from batch to batch, let alone from year to year.

While there definitely is critical info missing, it's also important to remember the info that isn't missing. Try cloning a beer, and the first thing you have to do is guess the malts and hops used!!! So, while I'm still unsure of the malts on this recipe, hopefully, the .pdf will, at least, save you guessing the hops and malts used in the other recipes**.

:peace:
PP

* The above is proof I can write as much sober as while 'multi-tasking' :). 3.0 hours to write the above. I think this explains why I do the occasional rant on poor terminology - lol.

** Later, I'll quickly whack some other recipes in, just to make sure that 20L is the best number to use for VAW.
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Last edited by PistolPatch on 26 Feb 2016, 12:30, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #8 made 2 years ago
Found some other 'Extra Pale' malt only recipes that also show the high colour, so I'm still lost on what is going on there. Perceived colour? :scratch: :think: :dunno:
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Post #9 made 2 years ago
Great posts, PP! This is the part of brewing I find the most frustrating, that is, can I use recipes outside of this web site or a couple of well known books. So I will try your approach next time another recipe catches my eye.

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Post #10 made 2 years ago
Great posts as usual PP !!!

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Post #11 made 2 years ago
Many thanks shetc and nik, who, btw, does a heap for home brewers in Greece. Much appreciated.

In fact, thanks to your posts, I'm going to do my best to follow this up. The pdf BrewDog has put out shows a fantastic willingness to share their knowledge with the brewing community. Has any other brewer done anything like what they have done? Not that I can think of :nup:.

I'll see if I can arrange a phone call with them so as we can iron out some of the questions above. I'm sure it will be an enjoyable conversation.

Thanks also to rickoles for posting it here, as I, would certainly have missed it otherwise.

Stay tuned!
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Post #12 made 2 years ago
PP, Remember that the PDF was free, and You'll will Always get What you Paid For.
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Post #14 made 2 years ago
That would be awesome if they can provide more critical data.
I think
Stone brewery had some recipes on their book for sure flying dog had shared the old version of "dogie style" with wyeast giving anual the strain they have used but I think they are all on the same boat somewhere always mising something or we are getting old and more picky .Personaly when I came across with this kind of recipes I dont bother any more unless if guesswork is minimal and for sure I can blame PP for that.




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Post #15 made 2 years ago
Nik, the Book was Free, which means it has No Worth.

Below is a link to "Modern Homebrew Recipes: Exploring Styles and Contemporary Techniques"
by Gordon Strong.

U.S. Cost is $15.29, and It Is worth every $0.01 it Costs!

IMHO.
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Post #16 made 2 years ago
I have been playing around with their Peroxide Punk session ale, reducing it down to a 10lt batch but have also been having trouble getting the numbers to line up. It has been suggested that the despairagy between the brew house efficiency listed in the DIY dog recipe and my own equipment efficiencies as predicted by BIABacus may have something to do with it?

Post #17 made 2 years ago
I see you are back from the outback Pilch :party:.

Whoever is suggesting that the problems found above can be answered through efficiency differences hasn't examined the recipes in the detail we have above. Unfortunately, the discrepancies aren't that easily solved. (PM me where you got that info btw. Hundred bucks it wasn't from here - lol).

Good post though as I'm working on other stuff atm, saw your post and thought, "If I don't do it now, I never will," so, have emailed the head brewer at Brew Dog with my thanks for them publishing their recipes, mentioned our problem, and, with a bit of luck, Stewart will hopefully send me a file from the brewing program he uses or, if it's easier for him, provide a time I can call him.

Fingers crossed :peace:,
PP
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Post #18 made 2 years ago
Yep, back home for a couple of weeks including Easter which my little girl is very excited about, I was away for Christmas so she has had her heart set on Daddy being home for Easter.

You are right, it was a very helpful guy on one of our local forums here in Australia. He is genuinely very helpful and usually has good advice for me.

I had originally entered an incorrect EBC rating for the base malt which put the final colour level right out of whack. After fixing that little stuff-up and playing around with the late hop addition timings (changed from 0 to 4 mins) I pretty well got the colour and bitterness to match the PDF version.

I bottled my first AG BIAB brew today (yes I know, very exciting). I started out as a Karl Strauss Pin Tale clone which I converted in BIABacus from a Beersmith recipe one of the other guys on our local forum worked up for me. I say "started out as" because I didn't use enough strike water to begin with so my pre-boil OG was up a bit resulting in a slightly smaller VIF and a lot higher ABV so I'm not sure I can really call it a clone now?!
The pre-bottling gravity sample tasted really good though so I think it should still be a success with some carbonation and bottle maturation.

Post #19 made 2 years ago
Well done Daddy :P.

Not only on the getting home for Easter but also on your first all-grain :thumbs:.

Being a bit low on volume and a bit higher on gravity, is the way you want your brew day to end. Because things like evaporation are very unpredictable from day to day, it is much beter to be in a position where you need to top up with some 'nice' water to dilute to your desired OG. From what I'm reading, it sounds like you might have over-done that rule a tad :). If your tap water is decent, never be scared to dilute prior to pitching but avoid diluting by more than 20%.

As for colour and IBU matching, I think I spent about six hours writing on this in the 48 hours in just two posts. You'll probably never find the posts in another week as they are in the second biggest thread of BIABrewer.info :roll:, so, the question starts at this post and my two essays follow immediately or shortly after.

Colour and IBU's are a very dodgy area. The 'essays' above look at that, and, also mention why you should avoid altering what you do know about a recipe just to match numbers.

Happy Easter!*
PP

* A mate of mine's wife asked him what his plans were for Easter. He replied, "Same as Jesus. Disappear Thursday. Turn up Monday."
Last edited by PistolPatch on 23 Mar 2016, 20:55, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #22 made 2 years ago
Good on you Pilch :peace:
Irishbrew wrote:Apparently they have updated/made some changes to the pdf, downloaded it and they are different file sizes, dunno what changes where made though
Thanks Irish for noticing that :salute:. I've had a look at the new file (had to provide an email address to get it which I can't remember having to do before?), and haven't found anything that will help us :dunno:. No word back yet on my email but hopefully a reply will come through at some stage.

Fingers crossed!
Last edited by PistolPatch on 25 Mar 2016, 18:47, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #23 made 2 years ago
Well, no reply from BrewDog but they have added me to their email list :think:.

Anyway...

Their emails invited me to invest in shares in the Brewery and it was quite an interesting read seeing how much they have grown and how they started. Investing is more of an option for UK and European brewers (their beers often don't arrive that well here in Ozland plus, many of the benefits of being an investor can only be received if you live "up north").

Here's a link for you.

:peace:
PP
Last edited by PistolPatch on 06 Apr 2016, 18:42, edited 1 time in total.
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Post #25 made 2 years ago
Today we are re-releasing it as DIY Dog v2.0; a project looking to the future every bit as much as the original looked back. DIY Dog v2.0 contains recipes for beers we have not even brewed yet.

The result? You can drink our beer before we do.
Last edited by Irishbrew on 08 Apr 2016, 00:09, edited 1 time in total.
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