Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2277 made 1 year ago
PistolPatch wrote:
1 year ago
Has anyone written to Greg Hughes and asked him to explain what his numbers are based on? What software he's using? Has anyone got time to ask him?
http://www.biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=43&t=3230

Ting tong had some info here that may help?
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2278 made 1 year ago
PistolPatch wrote:
1 year ago
Nice post Scott :thumbs:

And, good on you Miles for getting your teeth into it :salute:

I'm just looking at your last upload and it looks like we might have missed some basics so I'll get into those and attach a corrected file*...

In Section C, you have 4.3, 100 and 16. This should be 4300, 100 and 16.

In Section D, you have 31.50 L on the first line. I see you have grabbed this from what, in the original recipe, is called "Total Liquor." This is one example of the many problems you'll find when trying to copy recipes, even from books and magazines. The terminology they use is not clear and, worse still, the critical numbers are often missing. This makes things very hard. I am extremely experienced at interpreting recipes and it's taken me at least 15 minutes to get a grasp on this one and another 30 minutes at least to write the post. So, don't feel bad if you've been struggling ;)

In fact, this recipe just doesn't add up at all I'm afraid.

*Miles, if you really want to brew this recipe, I can do my best interpretation of it but some numbers won't match those in the book because the recipe is just too ambiguous. What would you like to do?

:scratch:
PP

Has anyone written to Greg Hughes and asked him to explain what his numbers are based on? What software he's using? Has anyone got time to ask him?
Hi Pistolpatch,

The original recipe is a bit vague to be honest, can you see this photo of the book I attached in my first post? https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzG2p ... VRak0xNHBj

I have been looking at the estimated volumes and have some questions about if it adds up, seeing as the max volume of my vessel of 27 litres? Is the mash volume calculated by the volume that will be achieved once the grains are in the vessel?

If you could help me in any way you could that would be terrific!

Miles.
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2280 made 1 year ago
I'll have another look tomorrow Miles*. (Thanks for the link mally; will review that as well :peace: )

Meanwhile, Miles, the question MS asks above is a good and very important one. If your Kettle matches the dimensions in your BIABacus file, your kettle will hold 36.6 L.

As for the pic, yep, that came up fine.

Besides answering Mad_Scientist's question, the other important thing is to let us know if you've read the "stickies" I mentioned in an earlier post. Scott also mentioned one of those stickies, Clear Brewing Terminology, which, for example, defines Mash Volume. (If the definition there is not clear, just copy it here and someone will expand on it.)

* I said I'd look tomorrow, but it's probably more appropriate I wait until you give more info on the above.

:peace:
PP
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2282 made 1 year ago
Sorry for the slow reply Miles, I had to do microsurgery on my motherboard :argh:

Stockpots are often labelled for what weight/volume their handles will support while carrying them. The BIABacus gives you the real volume.

I think the best bet for you would be to let us know what beer styles you like and we'll give you a recipe or...

If you have Wheeler's book, I know that there are some of his recipes on the site that have already been calculated, especially in this thread. Go towards the top of this page and type 'Graham Wheeler' into the "Search this topic" box and see how you go.

And, read more of the stickies so as you know what recipes have "integrity" and which ones don't ;)
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2283 made 1 year ago
Ok I have made a few changes to the file... does it still not add up somewhere? I did want to try and get my head around this, but do you think there is vital information missing that means it won't work?

I was wondering if it would be easier for me to design my own recipe, instead of converting using BIABacus. I took a quick look at Beersmith the other day and even though I think I got it configured to my equipment it didn't seem to be working as I wanted... :dunno:

Thanks for your help
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2284 made 1 year ago
Hey Miles,

Let me take a stab at helping you again on this...

On the BIABacus I would fill out other areas necessary (sections E through H...and maybe I) should you like the final result of this beer - to be able to repeat it in the future. This includes mash temperatures and times, yeast, etc. We normally like to mash for 90 minutes total and do a 90 minute boil. Doesn't mean you can't make good beer with reduced times, just that "best practice" is to extend this for best final result. Longer boil time will also give more evaporation, so hopefully the pot is large enough to allow this. Looks like you are good to go, and could even brew a larger volume batch if desired.

I can't vouch for the recipe and our ability to copy it. BUT...following others' comments on this thread, it sounded like others helped to dial in what everything meant so to be able to copy the recipe. (???) Seems fairly close. If you are close, what the heck, give it a whirl... At a minimum it will make beer, similar to the recipe you are trying to follow. Could be good. Give it a shot and for certain let us know how you like it.

Certainly following a good recipe when fairly new is preferred to just guessing yourself. And later too... My wife is a great cook, but although she could probably do it, seldom throws things together without referring to a good recipe. It's the same with high quality recipes in brewing. I like the BCS Book (Brewing Classic Styles) because of the ability we have to know how to copy the recipe and what high quality they all are. Something about THIS recipe intreagued you at the start... My recommendation - get as close as you can and take a swing at it. Give it a try. Do follow our "best practices"... See what you think. Might be great. Then for the future, also pick up that BCS book. Add it to your resources in your recipe cache.

I hope this works. Seems like you are within 15 minutes of finishing setting up your BIABacus, being done with recipe formulation, purchasing ingredients and giving it a go! ;)
Last edited by Scott on 31 Jul 2017, 00:49, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2285 made 1 year ago
Hey Guys!!!

Just finished drinking my second batch of Charlie Papazian's Silver Dollar Porter based on Mad_Scientist's interpretation of the recipe:
http://biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=5 ... ter#p44891
It is yum so I thought I would give another Papazian recipe a try. Using MS' technique, I entered the Phat Fired Weizenbock recipe (Joy of Home Brewing, ed. 3, pg. 309) into the Biabacus -- the recipe grain bill balances for a setting of VIF = 17.0 L.

Question: If I want 18.92 L VIF (5 gallons), can I now just enter that value? Or do I need to do something else?

Thanks,

Steve
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2289 made 1 year ago
shetc wrote:
1 year ago
Hey Guys!!!

Just finished drinking my second batch of Charlie Papazian's Silver Dollar Porter based on Mad_Scientist's interpretation of the recipe:
http://biabrewer.info/viewtopic.php?f=5 ... ter#p44891
It is yum so I thought I would give another Papazian recipe a try. Using MS' technique, I entered the Phat Fired Weizenbock recipe (Joy of Home Brewing, ed. 3, pg. 309) into the Biabacus -- the recipe grain bill balances for a setting of VIF = 17.0 L.

Question: If I want 18.92 L VIF (5 gallons), can I now just enter that value? Or do I need to do something else?

Thanks,

Steve
No one?
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2290 made 1 year ago
How'd we miss you shetc? :o Sorry Steve!

I'm not sure what you mean by MS's technique? When you say the grain bill balances at 17.0L, that doesn't necessarily mean you have the original recipe interpreted correctly; in fact, it's not sounding quite right to me. It's hard for me to tell without seeing the original recipe and your file.

With external recipes (non-BIABacus ones) what you are trying to do really is discover the VAW (Volume of Ambient Wort) of the original recipe. This is very really given in external recipes. Here's the typical situation we are faced with....

VAW = VIF + KFL
VIF (Volume into Fermenter) = Usually some "batch size" figure is supplied but we don't know if that means VIF or VAW
KFL (Kettle to Fermenter Loss) = Pretty much never given
EIK (Efficiency into Kettle) = Usually not given but if an "efficiency" percentage is given, we don't know if it is EIK or EIF
Grain Bill = Given

So, what we have to do is some intelligent guessing. Here's the first method I try...

1. Type in grain bill and weights on left of Section C
2. In Section W, change KFL to zero and set auto-efficiency to 75%* if no "efficiency figure has been given
3. If a "batch size" is given, type that into VIF in Section B

* This effectively turns the VIF in Section B to VAW. 75% is the most common % users tend to use in "static" software (other brewing software).

If, after doing the above, the right hand weight in Section C matches the left, then you would be in the very rare situation in which the original recipe author meant "batch size" = VAW (not VIF) and the efficiency figure they supplied (or the 75% you guessed at) means EIK.

It's usually much harder than that though (often impossible) and requires a bit of knowledge of not only the poor terminology used but also the different ways in which other software can be used. It's a massive mess.

Let's say you did get things balancing with the above, then what you would do is type the VAW you have determined into the top of Section C, delete the zero and 75 you typed in Section W and then finally, over-write the VIF in Section B with the volume you want.

Of course, all this would be totally unnecessary if all recipes were published with VAW. (That and the grain bill weights is all that is needed.)

So mate, I'd need the original recipe and your file to check if your "guess" of the original recipe's VAW looks okay.

Once again, really sorry you had to wait so long. Oops!

:peace:
Pat
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2292 made 5 months ago
SamEyes - go for it. Post your BIABacus file and see what happens. :salute:

Even though things have been slow around here with only Scott & I replying to a number of recent posts, I am sure there must be others who will give your file a look.
(If that doesn't stir up a hornets' nest, I don't know what will) :shoot:

I may not have the best answers, but I will try. You know, anybody can jump in and participate.....

Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2293 made 5 months ago
[mention]SamEyes[/mention] [mention]ShorePoints[/mention] [mention]Scott[/mention]

(Normally I answer a lot of questions here but I've been unable to lately. What I can say, is that it has been an absolute pleasure today to read through SP's and Scott's answers on the forum. Trust their advice so....)

As SP said, SamEyes, post your file up :thumbs:
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Help! First Time using Biabacus. Belgian Saison

Post #2294 made 3 months ago
Hi all,

as I wrote yesterday on another post, I would like to receive some help for my first batch using the Biabacus, our 8th batch in total, so pretty newbies.

Seeing the problems that we´ve had with our prior recipe, I´ve discovered that our problem was that our local dealer was giving us an all grain recipe that included sparge and so on.

So we want to repeat our last recipe but with the quantities right this time.

we have no preferences regarding using any sparge method or full BIAB, but our fermenter is 40l bucket and our kettle (with Tap) 33l aprox. (35cm*35cm - diameter*height) so we want to get the most out of our humble equipment.

The recipe is the following (Translated from spanish to english) and comes from Beersmith.

> Ingredients

5,07 Kg (90%) Malt Pilsen 3 EBC
0,28 Kg (5%) Malt Carapils 3-6 EBC
0,32 Kg (5%) Malt Cara Red 70 EBC
----------------------
Total: 5,67 Kg

> Mashing 90 mins 67 ºC

Mashing water: 22,7 l.
Mashing volume: 26,5 l.
Sparge water: 13,4 l. at 84 ºC
Total necessary water: 36,1 l.

>Boiling 90 mins a 100 ºC

Wort Volume on Kettle: 30,0 l.
Density before Boiling: 1046 (This is OG right?)

>Hops:
Hersbrucker 31 gr 60 final mins
Tettnanger 31 gr 15 final mins
Curaçao (Bitter orange peel) 15 gr 20 final mins
Cilantro (Coriander) 10 gr 10 final mins

Ibus 25

> Fermentor

Initial Volume: 24,0 l.
Initial Density : 1058
Final Density: 1008
Alcohol Volume: 6,71 %
Attenuation: 86,21 %

Botelling - 5.5 gr Sugar per Wort litre

As you can see this recipe is not for BIAB, but I would like to tranform it to our method, or even get a new recipe with the ingredients and our equipment with biabacus.
Whats the most important for me is to start working with the Biabacus, the recipe the less of my worries... as you can imagine...

Sorry for such a long and unclear post, I tried to explain everything and give you all the data that I have.
I would really appreciate the efforts if someone helps me. Hopefully we´ll brew this 8th batch on saturday... we´ll see.

Thanks in advance
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2295 made 3 months ago
Hi again Pinchons,

Once again, I'm headed for bed :). Before I do, a few things...

You mention, "our recipe is not for BIAB." That doesn't matter at all. It's simply an all-grain recipe and any all-grain recipe needs "translation" unless the author of the recipe just happens to be sending it to another brewer with exactly the same equipment.

And don't be worried about your humble equipment. [mention]kostass[/mention] from Greece who I spent ages with on Skype working on BIABacus stuff is now opening his own micro-brewery! When we were working on BIABacus stuff, he was actually brewing the tiniest batches ever on a tiny stove!

Yesterday I mentioned filling out Sections A, B, C and D of the BIABacus and posting it up. In your post above, you have all the info needed to do that so, give it a try and post up the file.

Here's some hints...

Kettle (35cm*35cm - diameter*height) [Put that in Section B]
5,07 Kg (90%) Malt Pilsen 3 EBC [Put that in Section C]
0,28 Kg (5%) Malt Carapils 3-6 EBC [Put that in Section C]
0,32 Kg (5%) Malt Cara Red 70 EBC [Put that in Section C]
Mashing 90 mins 67 ºC [Put that in Section E]
Boiling 90 mins a 100 ºC [Put that in Section B]
Density before Boiling: 1046 (This is OG right?) [No. Leave that out.]
Hersbrucker 31 gr 60 final mins [Put that in Section D]
Tettnanger 31 gr 15 final mins [Put that in Section D]
Curaçao (Bitter orange peel) 15 gr 20 final mins [Leave that for me]
Cilantro (Coriander) 10 gr 10 final mins [Leave that for me]
Ibus 25 [Put that in Section D - second line]
Initial Volume: 24,0 l. [I'm guessing that is Volume into Fermenter so put that in Section B]
Initial Density : 1058 [That's your OG. Put it at the top of Section C]

I look forward to waking up and seeing your first BIABacus attempt tomorrow Pinchons :)
You'll learn a bit just by typing the above in. In fact, there will be very little else to do.

:peace:
PP
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2296 made 3 months ago
Hi Pistol,

thanks for the input, in fact, I already had all the data on the Biabacus, even the Coriander and orange (no idea if that was the place, but I also was cross checking with othewr recipes I found through forum.

See attached BiaBacus, pretty empty, but getting started :-)

Thanks in advance

Regards

Pinx
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2297 made 3 months ago
That's great Pinx - nice job :thumbs: Let's have a look and see what we find...

The first thing is we see The BIABacus throwing up red warnings so we want to check those out first.
The warnings are indicating that we're asking too much from a kettle of that size. We all know it would be impossible to produce 200 litres of beer from a 33.7 litre kettle! But, how much can we get?

When our kettle is too small for the amount of beer we want, something has to give. We have to do one or more of the following: lower the volume we want, decrease the quality, increase the ingredients and/or increase the labour/time we spend on the brew. Here are three posts that might help with understanding this...

Sweet Liquor Shop 1
Sweet Liquor Shop 2
Sweet Liquor Shop 3

If your kettle is large enough for the brew you want, then none of the above has to be considered. Everything is easy. But, we're not in that situation so we have to make some decisions on what to compromise on. There are no right or wrong answers on what to compromise on. For example, one brewer might be happy to simply lower the Desired Volume into Fermenter to a size that suits the kettle (see Belgian 15 L pic). Another brewer may go to extremes and put as much water in to the mash as the kettle will take, then, after mashing, remove the spent grain to a second vessel and then sparge with as much water as is possible so as their boil starts with the kettle full (see Belgian 21A L pic). Another brewer might not want to muck around with a second vessel and sparging and instead, add water before and during the boil (see Belgian 21B L pic).

Notice how the grain needed for 21A is 6065 grams and for 21B it is 7075 grams? In other words, the second method costs an extra kilo of grain but avoids any mucking around with a second vessel and sparging.

You could even get 24 L as indicated in Belgian 24 pic.

It's up to you to decide what area/s to compromise on but for this post...

I'm going to work on 21B

Sections A, B and C (and Section W) are all sorted. The only real problem we have left to solve is Section D.

In Section D, we don't have the AA% of the individual hops used and for the reasons listed here, the "25 IBU's" doesn't really help us.

I've played around with a few things (such as using the average AA% for Hersbrucker and Tettnanger, 3.5% and 4.5%) but I'm not getting the numbers to balance.

Pinx, can you post up the actual .bsm file (BeerSmith file) you are working from? I think we are going to need it.

I'll wait for your reply before going any further. All the other stuff is easy.

I also know there is a lot to absorb above. Unfortunately, when your kettle isn't as big as you need for the amount of beer you want, things do get tricky. On a positive note though, the BIABacus is the only software that is capable of handling that trickiness :).

We're nearly there ;)
PP
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2298 made 3 months ago
Awesome PP!!

Thanks a lot. I spoke to my dealer and he got the r cope from the clone magazine... I thought it was with BS... anyway, feel free to modify whatever you consider from the recipe... my trust in this guy is decreasing per hours... jejejej

Really I’m mesmerized by the different configs that you sent me, seeing all possibilities... Love Biabacus!!! Each day becomes more clear... thx!!

So how do we go on?? 😊
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2299 made 3 months ago
Lol Pinx :lol:

I hope my last post didn't throw too much info at you in one hit - it is hard info to take on.

If you're happy to go with "dilution" config, we'll work with that. Note though, that you can change your mind on that config at any time and the BIABabacus will adjust everything accordingly.

So, how do we go on?

What I've done, just now, is some Googling using combinations of keywords such as "Belgain saison" "clone" "carapils" "tettnanger" "belle saison" etc. But, I didn't have any luck in gaining information with that so...

We are in a situation where we lack clear information and direct access to the original recipe. Normally, I'd initially deal with this problem by researching the style however the "saison" style is massively broad so, we can't really gain any ground with that strategy. Another strategy, for you, is if you know a commercial example of what you wish to brew, you can research that and get some info or even a recipe clone. So, consider that and come back to me if you have any luck and then we can utilise that information.

The only strategy I have, and this is fine, is to explore the information we have a bit more. Often the terminology used or some of the numbers given, can help me identify what software was used. If I can work that out, then I can often get the numbers to "balance" or make sense. (This is not a skill that you should need to acquire and you don't want to because it involves knowing all the nuances, errors, etc in a heap of different software and even publications.) So, let me have a bit of a play-around...

Okay, the play-around has given me a feel for the type of software that was probably used for the recipe. I won't write on this as it's too confusing. (Later, if you want more info, a search of posts written by me that contain the phrase "recipe detective," would give you some insights into this process. Don't search for that now as you'll just blow your brain up :) .)

You may be worried that the BIABacus is showing the recipe will have 17.5 IBU's instead of the 25 the original recipe says. This could be due to one or a combination of the following:

1. The original recipe's hops were from a harvest that had higher alpha acid yields than normal.
2. The original recipe's software uses an incorrect IBU formula which works on Volume into Fermenter instead of Volume of Ambient Wort. This error over-estimates the IBU's.
3. The original recipe's software contains a second error in the IBU formula where Gravity into Boil is used instead of Gravity of Ambient Wort. This error also results in an over-estimation of IBU's.
4. The original recipe's software used the Rager formula rather than Tinseth, which for several recipe types can, once again, over-estimate the IBU's.

We have no way of knowing which or how many of the factors above apply and this can be disheartening but don't let it be ;) . For a start, all-grain recipes are really forgiving. It's not serious if you stuff up the hop bill, the resulting beer will still be a pleasure. On a second brew of the same recipe, you might decide to lower or increase some things. It's definitely not worth worrying about.

In the file I've written the hop bill as an educated guess but I'm not familiar with the style so, feel free to delete the 24 L I wrote at the top of Section D and instead, on the next line, type in an IBU figure but don't go higher than 25.

All that then remains for you to do in Section D, is find out the Alpha Acid percentage of the hops you will be buying and type that in on the right-hand side of Section D.

The Rest of The BIABacus

In Section E, you have that you are mashing at 100 °C. Mashing at boiling point would be a disaster :argh:.

As I mentioned above, saison is not a style I'm familiar with however I did brew one a year or so ago last year using help from other members of this forum and it was excellent. After reviewing their advice which began here and the final recipe (which under credits I have written [mention]Contrarian[/mention] , Brewing Classic Styles and Gordon Strong), I've entered the following:

Section E: 67 °C on first line plus some other things (see Section I below).

Section H: What you want to do here is pitch at 20 °C and keep it there for say two days until high krausen comes. After that let the temp increase about a degree per day for 8 days. (That equals ten days but on my I would have let the ferment go for 14 days, probably gradually lowering it back down. My notes are not as good as they should have been :))

Also in Section H, although your original recipe says 86.2% attenuation (it doesn't say if that is real or apparent attenuation which are two different things) I've set the apparent attenuation to 90%. (I set that for the batch I did which, like your recipe, contained no sugars, just grain. It came out at 89.6%. Rarely you'll get estimated numbers match actuals!)

Section I: This is a really interesting mash schedule.

Okay, I think that's it for now. Phew! :)
PP
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2300 made 3 months ago
Hi there!!
I think I´ve read your message like about 10 times and I´ll still read it a few more... heheheh

So let´s get to business...

Regarding the IBUs & the AA%... I really don´t worry about the Ibu´s, what we want with the next brews and all the help that you´re providing us, is get to choose our best process, and therefore we´re going to brew to more batches of this Saison altering the process. This saturday we´ll brew with the afterwards water addition during the boiling and next week we´ll go for the sparging option. With that we´ll be able to evaluate and taste both configs.

Regarding Section I: 2l starter with the yeast? We´ve never done a starter, but maybe it´s time to do the first one. Just wanted to make sure that I understand what you´re talking about. So with starter of 2l water? "*** 2L starter made - 800ml then 1200ml" what do you mean? I don´t understand it quite well.

The Section H did really blow my mind. I´m afraid our storage conditions are not so accurate... I´ve built a small & humble room on my agrage where we store the fermenting beer. Temperature varies at the moment (SUmmer just started from 22 to maybe 26/28 degrees, but doesn´t stay steady, It shifts through out the day... At the moment we´re not able to control this, so I´ll have to go with whatever happens on that range and variation of temperatures. DO you know what that will bring? High Krausen, OMG, even the foam of the fermentation has a name! Unbeliaveable. I´m reading a few articles about it right now. So, ending the lines about the fermentation, we´ll wait til the airlock stops the boiling and we´ll measure the density (gravity) until it reaches the desired 1008 value. Is it OK? I don´t see another way... :headhit: But I can see that you´ve already entered those parameters on the section H. Last question about section H & I... consume within 6 months?¿ for real?¿ :idiot: We normally drink them 1 month after botteling... :whistle:

So I think I´m all through your post.

Again

THanks for all the help, I´m learning So Much!! If the outcome of beers is worthy, you´ll receive a shipment of it together with some oranges from our side :-)

Can´t wait to read your next post.

Please tag so that I get an email as notification :-)

Thanks again!!
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