Re: Does this recipe have integrity? Can I copy it?

Post #126 made 2 years ago
Sooo first no-chill BIAB coming up soon and want to try out the following recipe but is it scalable? It's in Danish but I think brewing language is universal (Kogevolumen = volume before boil).

Also any no chill recommendations regarding the hop additions and the Chipotle?
1485290773675-d13eef1d-7e5e-451b-b671-476d4b51cacb_.jpg
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Last edited by caero on 25 Jan 2017, 05:22, edited 1 time in total.

Re: Does this recipe have integrity? Can I copy it?

Post #129 made 1 month ago
Looking for a recipe for first BIAB brew. One of the reasons I wanted to start BIAB was so I can use recipes from a vintage beer book. Below is the recipe copied from the book based on traditional all-grain. I've added my attempt in BIABacus as an attachment. Thanks in advance for your help.
Style: English IPA
Name: 1868 Tetley EIPA
Yeast: Wyeast 1469 WEst Yorkshire Ale
Fermentation Temperature: 19C
Original Gravity: 1.062
Finishing Gravity: 1.012
ABV: 6.61
Total IBU's: 146
Colour (EBC): 17.6
Efficiency at End of Boil: 81% apparent attenuation
Mash Length (mins): 90
Boil Length (mins): 90
Your Vessel Type (Pot/Keggle/Urn): Pot
Source/Credits: The Homebrewer’s Guide to Vintage Beer by Ron Pattinson
Notes/Instructions/Comments: Typically simple recipe with only two ingredients. Traditional all grain instructions say mash at 67.2 C and Sparge at 73.9 C.

Volumes etc.
Your Vessel Volume (L or gal): 40.2 L
Your Vessel Diameter (cm or in): 35 cm
Water Required (L or gal): 34.4 L
Mash Temperature (C or F): 67.2 C
Volume at End of Boil (L or gal): 24.3 L
Volume into Fermenter (L or gal): 20 L
Brew Length (L or gal):
Total Grain Bill (g or oz): 6600 g
Grains - Colours - Percentages and/or Weight (g or oz)
Grain 1: Pale Malt 2 row - 11.9 EBC 6,600 g
Hops - AA% - IBUs - Weight (g or oz) at Minutes
Hop 1: Golding 5.0 AA% - 146 IBUs - 284 g at 90 min
Adjuncts/Minerals/Finings etc
Adjunct:
Mineral:
Finings: 1/2 tsp Irish Moss at 5 min.
Fermentation
Wyeast 1469 West Yorkshire Ale for 10 days at 19 C
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Last edited by fowlfeatherbrew on 16 Nov 2019, 06:00, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Does this recipe have integrity? Can I copy it?

Post #130 made 4 weeks ago
@fowlfeatherbrew , great job on the post above.

More Detail on the Original Recipe

I think you have used an old template that the site still has (and it shouldn't) hanging around in a pinned post. What we really need is an exact copy of the recipe from "The Homebrewer's Guide to Vintage Beer." I'm sure that Ron wouldn't mind because once we get one of his recipes converted, the same principles will apply to all the other recipes. Take a pic of the relevant page/s and also look through the book to see if Ron defines his terminology. (Don't spend too much time on that as most books don't have anything!) If you are worried about this, just send the copies to me and I'll come back to this thread with the conversion and any other relevant info.

Good work on the BIABacus

Until the above comes through, let's knock a few other things on the head...

We talked in the "My First Post" thread about your kettle size. If we think of a "standard batch size" (there is no such standard by the way) as being 19 Litres (5 US gallons) into Packaging, then your kettle size poses a problem. Your kettle is not big enough for us to add the "Total Water Needed," in at the beginning of the brew. And, the bigger the beer, the bigger the problem.

You've solved this problem by, in Section W, choosing to hold back 3 litres and use it in a sparge. That helps things a little but, sparging, requires lots of extra equipment so that method is a last resort. And, before we even use Section W, it's important to first understand how things work when you have a kettle that is large enough to handle the grain bill plus all the water needed for the brew.

In your spreadsheet, get rid of the 3 litres on the second line of Section W. Now, in Section B, increase your kettle diameter and height by 5cm. Your kettle volume should now read as 58.8 Litres. This will allow us to play around with a kettle that can fit all of the Total Water Needed and all the Fermentable Bill into the mash without it overflowing.

So we are now at a very simple level.

Now type in 1.092 into the first field of Section C. You get no warnings as the kettle is big enough to handle the 38.92 Litres of Total Water Needed (TWN) plus the 10,421 grams of grain. (Take a quick note of Section P. It will say 69.5% for the first two efficiency figures.)

Now type in 1.062 into the first field of Section C. You get no warnings as the kettle is big enough to handle the 36.23 Litres of Total Water Needed (TWN) plus the 6,170 grams of grain. (Note now that the first two lines of Section P will say 79.2%.)

Now type in 1.032 into the first field of Section C. You get no warnings as the kettle is big enough to handle the 34.13 Litres of Total Water Needed (TWN) plus the 2,839 grams of grain. (Note now that the first two lines of Section P will say 88.8%.)

What's the pattern above? Why is it happening?

The More Water that Touches the Grain, The More the Grain is Washed/Cleaned

Notice how on the 1.032 brew, 88.8% of the sugars in the grain bill are washed into our brew? Compare that to the 69.5% on the 1.092 brew.

The difference between the two is that the grains in the 1.032 brew are being washed with relatively more water than the 1.092 brew.

You might say, "Why don't we just use a lot more water in the 1.092 brew? We could actually get an 88.8% result but we would need to firstly add a lot more water and, secondly, all this extra water would have to be boiled off over many, many hours. This extra-long boil would actually add some strong flavours t the beer which, depending on the style, could be very undesirable.

I better stop now as I have gone a few hours over budget. Hopefully the above is enough to keep you entertained ubntil the original recipe is posted.

:salute:
PP
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Re: Does this recipe have integrity? Can I copy it?

Post #131 made 4 weeks ago
Thanks for the walk through. It's starting to make sense now. The recipe is attached. I've included two recipes for comparison so you may get a sense for how Ron prepares them. These recipes were created by him after pouring through old hand written brewing records. Inferences had to be made as brewing techniques were different from home brew and done at an industrial volume.
  • From his Glossary:
    Apparent attenuation = (FG-OG)/OG
    Sparging - sprinkling hot water on the grain bed after drawing off the initial wort
    SRM - Standard Reference Method
  • From his Recipe notes:
    IBUs in the recipes are the theoretical values, based on qty of hops used. Actual IBU#s will be lower.
    Mashing - recipes are simplified to a single infusion followed by a sparge
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Re: Does this recipe have integrity? Can I copy it?

Post #132 made 4 weeks ago
fowlfeatherbrew,

Here's what I wrote just before I read PistolPatch's reply. It is different to his, but I trust it does not conflict. If it does, ignore my input.

The recipe data seems to be complete enough that I would say it almost has good integrity.
Huh?
It doesn’t specify batch volume at a particular point, does it?
Volume of mash, VIB, VFO, VAW, VIP are all different. Without knowing the author’s practice of always meaning volume at a particular stage, there is some uncertainty.
Picky? Yes.

I took a look at your file and I think it needs only two new entries to make it ready for use. Good work so far! :thumbs:
IBUs in Section D (top part) to get the right side of Section D to populate. The IBUs you posted as 146 from the original seem really high to me. Please check that again.
Enter 90 in Section E for mash minutes.

Otherwise, here’s some related comments.
Section B - good data entered, especially
your kettle dimensions
90 min boil
desired VIF

Section C
Single malt used _ left side column shows 14.55 lbs, Was that for the original batch size of xxx?
Does your batch size make sense with the 13.82 lbs on the right side?
Is the EBC entered correct? What happens if let blank? NOTHING
Section C
leave OG empty and natural priming y is good

Section D the hop bill
Single hops type used. That makes this a Single Malt And Single Hops (SMASH) recipe.
There is no weight showing on the right side - this is due to having no target IBU number provided (Tinseth) in Section D top.
What was the IBU number in the original recipe? I doubt that you can get to 146 IBUs with a 5% AA hops and not lose more in KFL without a hopsack! See below.
What was the AA% of the battering hops in the original recipe? I have to ask in advance what the AA% is for hops that I purchase because they vary from year to year and over time after harvest. It makes a difference.
Comments on this site and others indicate that there is generally no advantage to having bittering hops in the boil for any longer than 60 minutes. You do get different weight numbers for the hops if you change the minutes field for either the original or What You Will Use side. It’s your choice.

Section E
For true BIAB, mashing in accord with preferred practices here should be 90 minutes. Even if you are using Section W for a sparge.
Strike temperature derived from grain temperature is helpful, but you should shoot a little low and carefully apply heat to hit the mash temp target, rather than overshot it, especially at 67.2 ºC.

Section G
Be aware that without a hopsack you will have greater Kettle to Fermenter Loss (KFL). If you use one, you won’t need as much water held back in Section W for a sparge to accomplish your desired batch size and OG. But I should defer to PistolPatch on this matter.
With only one addition of hops at a time point longer than 60 min, you will not have much aroma contribution from them in the final product, but that’s the style.

Section I
Mash at 67.2 ºC is fine - remember it as causing the combined mouthfeel and alcohol and sweetness in your product derived from the yeast you choose. A lower math temperature can give a different combination.
How will you conduct the sparge? You can heat the 3 L withheld in Section W in a separate vessel and expose the grains still in the bag (removed from the kettle) to it in a variety of ways. Pour-over or dunk, or a combination, all are a little more work, but feasible. Your choice.

Pitching at 14.4 ºC seems low to me, but it will work.

Section H
Fermenting at 19 ºC is fine. It will take quite a number of days to get to FG, but you can tell by taking aliquots for gravity testing (try to keep sample size small, as it should not go back into the main batch)
Conditioning for 10 days will probably lead to tasting a bottle of green beer. Wait longer if you can.
I don’t pay much attention to ‘consume by’ dates for my beers. Either it is consumed in a shorter time or I keep a few bottles hidden for aging, e.g. honey ales, porters, old ales. I think I had one pale ale that was in decline at 7 months.

Section Q
When you get to packaging time - bottling as shown, priming sugar (corn sugar chosen) can be added dry to individual bottles or pre-dissolved (boiled) and added to the entire batch just prior to bottling. Keep good records on sugar weight and beer volume and desired volume of CO2. Under-carbonated (flat) and over-carbonated are both undesirable.

Finally, to get the degree sign on a Mac, hold down the ‘option’ key and type the number zero. On a PC, hold down the ALT key and press numbers 0176 for one size or 0186 for another.
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Re: Does this recipe have integrity? Can I copy it?

Post #133 made 4 weeks ago
Top notes from Zoner, as always :salute: . Further to what Zoner said on the pitching and fermentation temperatures, the original recipe gives a pitching temperature of 14.4°C. This would normally mean your fermentation temperature as well. It's a very odd temperature that so I looked up the yeast and they recommend fermenting at 17.8°C - 22.2°C. I have no idea why 14.4°C would be mentioned. The other recipe you've put up shows a similiarly odd temperature of 15.6°C???

I like the premise of the book. Let's have a look at the rest of the recipe now to see how we go...

There's a Problem with the Hop Bill

Okay, as is usual, we have a problem with the hops. There is simply not enough info for us to know what quantity of hops are needed. To be able to accurately replicate the hops needed, we would need one of the following two things:

1. The AA% percentage of the hops used (not supplied), the weight of hops used (supplied) and the Volume of Ambient Wort (not supplied). This year, Golding hops might contain 6% of alpha acids compared to last year's 4%. It is not the same each year. If I use the same weight in this year's brew as I did last year, it will turn out 50% more bitter.
OR
2. The total IBU's (NOT supplied***), the mathematical method used (not supplied) and, preferably, the actual formula used to get that number. This failure to define how the IBU's were derived is a massive problem which is fairly comrehensively explained in this post. At the end of that post is a nice pic showing how big the differences can be between the Rager, TInseth and Garetz formulas for estimating IBU's. Unfortunately the author's comment, "IBUs in the recipes are the theoretical values, based on qty of hops used. Actual IBU#s will be lower," really doesn't give us any clues.

***This number of 146 IBU's doesn't really make any sense. That would be an over the top bitter beer. There is another method of describing the quantity of any hop to use but that is called HBU (Home Brewing Units) and even that makes no sense here. I'm totally lost on that number. (If Zoner reads this, maybe he has a clue?)

What to Do?

So, the only hop info we have is that the author used 284 grams (a massive amount in a "standard batch) of a hop of unknown alpha acid percentage in an unknown quantity of beer.

Sometimes, in these situations, you can contact the author and politely ask what they mean by a certain number. Normally you ask what software they used as well as whether they used Rager, Tinseth or Garetz but in this case, I'm not sure what you would ask? Those pitching temps worry me as well. Zoner mentioned about the lack of flavour and aroma hops. This could well be right for the year 1868 but, once again, I'm a bit wary.

You'll find a thread here called, Does this recipe have Integrity? Can I copy it? That thread shows that nearly all published recipes lack critical information. We can usually make a few guesses and come up with a great recipe. (We don't need exact numbers to brew a great beer. We do need them if we want to copy that great beer though!) In this case, and I hate to be the bearer of bad news, I really have no confidence in the original recipe.

The weird thing is that the author has the blog Shut Up About Barclay Perkins. A mate of mine reads it and, from memory, reckons it was excellent. Maybe there's a section in the book where he explains what he means by IBU's or where he lists his "batch size?"

Failing that, can you write to the author and ask him about the pitching temperatures and the IBU number? For the IBU question, maybe word it as follows... "I'm just a little stuck on the IBU's given in your recipes. For example, an East India Pale Ale would normally have IBU's of 40 to 60 but your recipe says 146. Can you let me know what brewing software you use and whether you use the Rager, Tinseth or Garetz formula so as I can work out better work out that weight of hops to use?" It might take a few correspondences to nail it down.

I think that is as far as I can go until we get further info. At least you'll have time to study the post I linked above. Here it is again... The Crazy World of IBU's!

Good luck on getting some more info for us :luck:
Last edited by PistolPatch on 17 Nov 2019, 07:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does this recipe have integrity? Can I copy it?

Post #134 made 4 weeks ago
In addition to my post above, I was just going through Ron Pattinson's blog and if you look here, you'll find posts that contain recipes. It's a real jumble of info. There seems to be no consistency there. Some recipes have lots of info and others, like the two you posted earlier @fowlfeatherbrew have almost none. His tweets can be a tad interesting as well :)
Last edited by PistolPatch on 17 Nov 2019, 07:24, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Does this recipe have integrity? Can I copy it?

Post #135 made 4 weeks ago
Thanks, PP, for support. I see more clearly that integrity of a recipe is an all-or-nothing deal.

As for the IBU mystery, I haven’t a clue. Even realistic Tinseth IBUs derived from AA% and weights lose any distinction in flavor to me once above 120 - it registers as Bitter and little else. That would surely be true if there were no late addition hops / dry hopping for flavor & aroma.

I do have a Clue in the form of a board game - Colonel Mustard... :whistle:
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