Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2326 made 6 months ago
Hi @maze42 . If you could find information about the mineral contents of your water it would be easy to calculate the acid additions needed for a healthy mash PH.
From what I know Munich's water is very hard, so 1% of acidulated malt doesn't seem enough to me, but without having seen a water report I'm just guessing.
Do you think you can find a water report for your city?
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2327 made 6 months ago
I found this document, it confirms (I think, because I can't really read german) what I thought.

(I have to say I'm very jealous, not only you can find that report online, it is up to date and it has a lot of information! I have to ask for it explicitly in my city and the information they give me is extremely poor).

Tap water in munich is very high in bicarbonate (making it alkaline) and moderately hard in calcium and magnesium (makes it a bit hard).

Bicarbonate: avg: 318,4 min: 228,6 max: 375,9
Calcium: avg: 81,5 min: 64,0 max: 93,7
Magnesium: avg: 21,1 min: 17,0 max: 24,3

Then it is low in sulfate and chloride (averages are 17 and 9 respectively). This is not as important, as the levels of calciums and bicarbonate, but it is something you can play with to tweak the flavor of your beer (the short version is that for maltier beers you want a higher chloride to sulfate ration, and for drier or hoppier beers you want more sulfate, with balance being in between).

You can lower the amount of bicarbonate considerably by precipitating it if you boil your water (see section "4.2.2 Decarbonation by Boiling" here , but I think thats a lot of work. The bicarbonate levels in my city are no that high but I still have to lower it most of the time, I just add phosphoric acid.

If you tell me what acids and salts you have access to I can give you an idea of what to use for that recipe, but I suggest that you learn to use one of the water chemistry tools available (I use Bru'n Water, but there are simpler alternatives) because the water from your city will require treatment most of the time (100% of the time for light colored beers for sure).
Last edited by tizoc on 23 Jan 2019, 23:57, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2328 made 6 months ago
Water treatment links that make sense to me are on the same forum where maze42 found his recipe.

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/thre ... ent.64822/

https://www.thehomebrewforum.co.uk/thre ... ent.71451/

Everybody's water is different and as long as chlorine and chloramine and excessive mineral salts are not going to screw things up, it can make beer. I am lucky that I have three different water sources that are good but I brew different ales all the time and cannot make water comparisons because I don't brew the same beer from each individual water source. Maybe in a few more years of brewing.... :think:

Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2329 made 6 months ago
Thanks a lot for the tips and links @ShorePoints and @tizoc
Since I still have some time till Saturday I will read up on water conditioning and also check the local store for the mineral content of their bottled waters ;)
@tizoc I have citric acid available, no salts, but there are brew stores where I can order most of that stuff typically used, just not in time for this batch. And yes, we are lucky in Germany, tap water is treated as food by law so the reports must be available and it is regularly tested for mineral content and potential contamination.
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2330 made 6 months ago
All right, so I did some research and found an easy calculator for the start.
I could either use 10% acidulated Malt to get to the water hardness I need for an NEIPA. My question here is if you would taste that high amount of acidulated in the finished beer? And it would still leave me at the low sulfate and chloride levels.
Or I could use 40ml of 9% hydrochloric acid and 65ml of 5% sulfuric acid and no Acidulated Malt at all to also bring my sulfate to chloride to a higher and even level (1:1 preferred for NEIPA based on my searches, 111 to 113 in my case). If this is the way to go I might be able to get those acids in the pharmacy.
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2331 made 6 months ago
@maze42 citric acid works. I don't know the strength of your citric acid, I assumed 88% (I have no idea at what strengths citric acid does come) and for your recipe, 0.4 grams per liter (for a total of 12.4 grams) seems to do the trick. This will leave you with a mash PH of about 5.4 (not adding anything gives you a PH of 7, it is too high, conversion will be bad and you will extract tannins from the grains at that PH).

I attached a Bru'n Water file for your recipe, take a look (be sure to enable macros when it asks you), I will try to give you some pointers later, but the important stuff is:

Sheet #1 contains the water input, I filled it with the water information I found in the document I linked, you shouldn't have to touch that
Sheet #2 is for sparge water, but since you seem to do full volume like I do you don't need to touch that
Sheet #3 is the grain for the recipe, this has to be filled to predict the mash PH, and before any mineral or acid additions are filled in
Sheet #4 is where the additions are made, I just added citric acid (its at the bottom), no minerals. I picked the "pale ale" which is good for hoppy beers, you are not going be able to match it without salt additions, but that doesn't matter, what you should worry about for now is the PH, the rest is secondary. The water volumes here are the total water you are going to use, and the VAW after chilling the wort, I used the values from the BIABacus file you uploaded
Sheet #5 is just a summary of the water adjustments you will be doing

In #3 you will see that I added 1% of acid malt like in your original recipe, if you are not going to add it you should correct that and see how the amount of citric acid changes. I'm not sure how good Bru'n Water is at predicting the PH changes from the acidulated malt additions (I have never used acidulated malt), but for the rest it has been pretty spot on for me.

Hope this helps.
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2332 made 6 months ago
maze42 wrote:
6 months ago
I could either use 10% acidulated Malt to get to the water hardness I need for an NEIPA. My question here is if you would taste that high amount of acidulated in the finished beer?
I don't know, never used acidulated malt but 10% seems very high to me.

Btw, if you use liquid acids be very careful, use protective glasses if you can. The amounts you have to use are usually quite small, I store my acid diluted (btw dilution isn't simple, a ratio of water/acid will not give you the strength you want), but if you don't do that syringes help a lot.

Tweaking the sulfate/chloride ratio would be good, but that is not even close to the importance of having a good mash PH.
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2333 made 6 months ago
Sorry maze42 I just now noticed that citric acid comes in solid form and I was making the calculations as if it were liquid. In addition to that I had forgotten to remove a baking soda addition (which adds bicarbonate) I had in the base file.

For the same result I mentioned above you would need 14.6 grams (corrected file attached).

Note that citric acid (like lactic acid too) may add flavor to your beer, but for the beer you are making I guess it is not a bad thing.
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2335 made 6 months ago
Just a quick update after brew day. Thanks to @tizoc‘s Brun Water sheet and the citric acid addition, the ph reading after mashing hit a perfect 5.3. Thanks to the BIABCUS checklist everything went mostly smooth.
I had very low actual EAW 72% and EIF 63.1. Does anyone have an idea what I was doing wrong? Maybe it is due to the altitude of Munich. My thermometer showed 208,4 °F/98 °C when the water was boiling. So also higher evaporation at lower temps?
Other than that it will be a bit stronger :thumbs: , it smelled already great when I did the dry hopping yesterday.
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Re: Use this thread to convert recipes to suit your equipment...

Post #2336 made 6 months ago
@maze42 looks like mis-measurements to me, the estimated VAW (based on your post-boil volume measurement) and your actual VAW don't match.
Also, based on your pre-boil density, and how much evaporation you got (more than estimated), your GAW density should be higher (I also see that it is higher at pitching time, why is that? did you add sugar?)
How did you measure the densities? hydrometer? refractometer? at what temperature? if not at 20C (or whatever temperature your hydrometer is calibrated for), did you account for the temperature difference and made the correction?


Btw, EAW 72% isn't that low for a beer with such OG. To correctly estimate the efficiencies it is also a good idea to fill in the data for the fermentables being used in section Y, because not every malt gives the same yield.
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