Transferring near-boiling wort into cube

Post #1 made 4 months ago
Hi,

I'm looking at shortening my brew-day and have been following some of the threads on the "no-chill" method. Not only should this save me some time but I've always been uncomfortable using so much water for cooling wort (house is on rain water tanks). I use a large 50L pot for boiling that doesn't have a spigot/valve. Is there a safe method in transferring near-boiling wort from the pot into a cube? Possibly a SS racking cane with silicon tubing?

looking forward to hearing what other people do.

Thanks in advance
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Re: Transferring near-boiling wort into cube

Post #3 made 4 months ago
Before I had a SS siphon I used my 1/2" silicone tubing with a jiggler, but often found it quicker/easier to put the tube in the boiling wort (for sanitation), then when ready to transfer, just pick it up (kinked to stop flow) with my silicone gloves on.
Make sure one end stays in liquid then place in cube and release kink.

Have to say it is quite dangerous with boiling wort but it worked for me, and I love anything cheap i.e. ghetto!
G B
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I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
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Re: Transferring near-boiling wort into cube

Post #4 made 4 months ago
Thanks for the replies tizoc and mally, greatly appreciated.

I have considered leaving the pot to cool overnight with the lid on - the pot I have is a large stock pot with a loosely fitting lid (certainly not sealed or airtight). However, after reading some posts on other sites, the thought of bugs being sucked into the pot as the wort cools and contracts has made me a little apprehensive to use this approach. Is this something you do routinely tizoc? I could certainly try putting something on top of the lid to weigh it down a bit to improve the "seal".

Mally I have done a bit of research on the "jiggler siphon" and the only ones that I can get readily, are those used for transferring petrol and other non-food grade liquids - certainly not boiling wort. I guess I could try cutting out the copper end bit and putting it into a length of silicon tubing and having a go. What do you think? If I understand you correctly it sounds like you have had success without the jiggler thing - by kinking the tube and letting gravity prime the tube to create a flow?

I've got a brewday planned for tomorrow - NZ Pale Ale - so will have to come up with a plan quickly. I'm reluctant to use the immersion chiller (time factor and water wastage) so maybe I'll just bite the bullet and leave it to cool overnight and then pitch the next day. Probably wont get much sleep worrying :pray: :pray: :pray: :pray:

Thanks again for your thoughts, much appreciated!
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Re: Transferring near-boiling wort into cube

Post #5 made 4 months ago
Well, I only started doing no-chill in the kettle recently, the first time I did it on the bigger kettle I have, a bit bigger than yours (65L), and a loose lid (it fits, it is just not even close to airtight). (edit: to clarify, this was a 20L batch like almost every batch I brew, so in this case there was a lot of headspace while the wort was waiting to get cold, I don't know if that matters)
What I did in that case (having the same worry as you about bugs getting sucked in) was to put the lid on the kettle at flameout, and cover it with a huge bin bag around the lid/kettle borders, got the air out and tightened it with one of those elastic luggage cords. I don't know if it was necessary but it worked, and the resulting beer was good (this was my first no-chill after a long time, when I tried it before with HDPE cubes the resulting beer was bad, not sure if because of the HDPE cubes, or something else, I didn't have much experience back then).

After that batch with the big kettle, I switched to boiling the wort using a smaller kettle (32L), which I have adapted to work as a fermenter too. What is different in that kettle is that I used silicon tubing on the perimeter of the kettle opening so that I can make it airtight when the lid is on, with the help of some binder clips. I also drilled a hole in the lid and added a spigot to it, that way I can close it when I want to, and I can also put an airlock there to ferment. Similar to what is described here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/thre ... 50.646313/

With this new setup I don't cover the kettle with anything extra. I have done one batch with the huge bin bag cover and two batches with this smaller kettle-and-fermentor setup so far without infections (one of the beers is still fermenting, but the first two were a Kolsch and a fake Marzen fermented with K-97, both have clean profiles so off-flavors would be noticeable, no roasted malt or hops to hide behind).

Some other variations I have seen mentioned by other people:
- cover with sanitized towel or fabric
- taping the edge of the lid and kettle using painter's tape (I guess any kind of adhesive tape works)

What I still have to try:
- lowering the boil to 60 minutes (I do 90 minutes) and see if I get DMS, with 90 minute boils (even gentle ones and with the kettle semi-covered with the lid) I haven't detected any in the finished beer
- see if I can do something to purge the headspace while it chills because I don't know if leaving the wort in contact with oxygen for so long isn't affecting the flavor.
Last edited by tizoc on 14 Dec 2018, 09:48, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Transferring near-boiling wort into cube

Post #6 made 4 months ago
Mally I have done a bit of research on the "jiggler siphon" and the only ones that I can get readily, are those used for transferring petrol and other non-food grade liquids - certainly not boiling wort. I guess I could try cutting out the copper end bit and putting it into a length of silicon tubing and having a go. What do you think? If I understand you correctly it sounds like you have had success without the jiggler thing - by kinking the tube and letting gravity prime the tube to create a flow?
Well, I am not really recommending the jiggler, Surfboy, as I didnt like it that much. I just mentioned it in case it may help you, as I know of others that like them.
Mine was all copper and recommended for Aquarium use, so I had no problem with using it for transferring wort (hot or cold). I just boiled it to clean off any oils/dirt/residue etc.

As for the "kink" method; If you have any silicone tubing, just do a test run in the kitchen sink or something with cold water to get the technique right and see if you like it.
I would recommend silicone gloves with hot wort though (even though on occasions I managed it bare handed too).

Others have had success with overnight kettle chilling as well. I seem to remember they used a sanitised cloth (maybe soaked in starsan) to catch any microorganisms during cooling/wort contraction.
It's really just finding what works for you.
G B
I spent lots of money on booze, birds and fast cars. The rest I squandered
I've stopped drinking, but only when I'm asleep
I ONCE gave up women and alcohol - it was the worst 20 minutes of my life
    • SVA Brewer With Over 100 Brews From Great Britain

Re: Transferring near-boiling wort into cube

Post #9 made 4 months ago
tizoc wrote:
4 months ago


After that batch with the big kettle, I switched to boiling the wort using a smaller kettle (32L), which I have adapted to work as a fermenter too. What is different in that kettle is that I used silicon tubing on the perimeter of the kettle opening so that I can make it airtight when the lid is on, with the help of some binder clips. I also drilled a hole in the lid and added a spigot to it, that way I can close it when I want to, and I can also put an airlock there to ferment. Similar to what is described here: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/thre ... 50.646313/



Thanks for this link tizoc - this could solve all my problems! Having one pot for mashing, boiling and fermenting - no need to chill or transfer wort then. Fantastic. Certainly worth thinking about.

Thanks again :thumbs:
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Re: Transferring near-boiling wort into cube

Post #10 made 3 months ago
Get yourself an auto siphon. This beautiful tool makes liquid transfers quick and easy. If you get one you will find yourself using it multiple times during a brew.

Fermtech Regular 5/16" Auto Siphon With 8 feet of Tubing, Clear, 1 Piece https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00AYHS7ZY/ref ... jCbRBF9KS4
Some people are like slinkies. Not good for much, but bring a smile to your face when pushed down the stairs.

Weehoosebrewing.ga
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Re: Transferring near-boiling wort into cube

Post #11 made 3 months ago
Lumpy5oh wrote:
3 months ago
Get yourself an auto siphon. This beautiful tool makes liquid transfers quick and easy. If you get one you will find yourself using it multiple times during a brew.

Fermtech Regular 5/16" Auto Siphon With 8 feet of Tubing, Clear, 1 Piece https://www.amazon.ca/dp/B00AYHS7ZY/ref ... jCbRBF9KS4



I've got one of those but I doubt the plastic will stand the near-boiling fluid.

Thanks
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Re: Transferring near-boiling wort into cube

Post #13 made 3 months ago
Hi there @Surfboy66 and welcome to the forum :salute: ,

I've read this thread from beginning to end a few times over the last 20 minutes. It's a good thread @Surfboy66 , no doubt about that. I think what's confusing you and probably those who have replied, is the title of this thread, "Transferring near-boiling wort into cube."

Chilling is very confusing. Most authors, sites, magazines, etc., ignore it.

What I'm going to say to you, firstly, @Surfboy66, is to go back and think on.... (Thank you tizoc for finding the old stuff I had written. You referred to the following)...

Active Chilling: (Involves equipment and water.) Could be immersion chiller, plate chiller or counter-flow chiller. Will only cool to a few degrees of tap temperature so if tap temp is too warm, then a pre-chiller with ice (involves a copper coil in a bucket of iced water) will need to be employed as the wort gets to within a few degrees of tap temp. Alternatively, the wort can be transferred to the fermentor after chilling with tap water and then the remaining chill to pitching temp can be done in a fridge.

(For small batch brewers, the above can be achieved in a laundry tub/sink.)

No-Chilling/Overnight Chilling: (Involves zero chilling equipment.) This involves placing the lid (and towel, see below) on the kettle at flame-out and leaving it to chill in the kettle overnight. To avoid the possibility of stewing the hops, I would advise using your BIAB bag as a hop-sock and removing the sock from the wort, ten minutes after flame-out. Cover the lid of the kettle with a towel once the heat settles down a little to help prevent nasties accessing the kettle.

With this method, you should reach ambient air temperature within 24 hours. Drain into fermentor and if necessary, chill further to pitching temp.

No-Chilling/Delayed Pitching: (Involves a high-temp, food-grade, plastic cube). About five or ten minutes after flame-out, wort is transferred via silicone hose and ball-valve or jiggler syphon to plastic cube. Cube is filled to brim (or air squeezed out) and then capped and left to cool.

Wort can be left in the cube for weeks and months before transferring to fermentor, (final chilling to pitching temp if needed) and pitching. I would suggest using 'kettle chilling' above instead of cube chilling if you intend to pitch the wort asap as this removes an extra transfer and an extra vessel to clean.


I haven't re-read the above thoroughly since I wrote it but, on a quick skim, it still looks good.

What the above does not mention though is the obvious. Don't worry, the obvious is missing from many threads, forums, magazine articles and podcasts. The obvious could fill thousands of paragraphs.

So, a few important questions that haven't been asked or answered here yet are, "What sort of beer do you want to brew and when do you want to drink it?"

Every beer style is different. Some require exquisite care to brew, some we can brew while riding a train. What we want to know here though, firstly, is whether this style is one that is capable of not being actively chilled.

Once we know that, then we can venture further I reckon :scratch:
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Re: Transferring near-boiling wort into cube

Post #14 made 3 months ago
PistolPatch wrote:
3 months ago

So, a few important questions that haven't been asked or answered here yet are, "What sort of beer do you want to brew and when do you want to drink it?"

Every beer style is different. Some require exquisite care to brew, some we can brew while riding a train. What we want to know here though, firstly, is whether this style is one that is capable of not being actively chilled.

Once we know that, then we can venture further I reckon :scratch:

Hi @PistolPatch ,

Thanks for responding to my post.

I'm new to homebrewing and still finding my feet - this weekend was my 5th AG BIAB batch and I think I'm starting to get a feel for my system. I brewed an Irish red ale and pretty much hit my target numbers using BIABacus. For this particular batch I no-chilled and followed the suggestion of @tizoc by slitting a length of silicone tubing and putting it on top of my brew pot to improve the seal between the pot and the lid with a handfull of bulldog clips. This I left for 24 hrs and pitched the yeast the following day at the required temperature. (I hadn't really considered the hops sitting in the wort "stewing" until you mentioned it - so I may have some issues there? Will probably bag the hops in future if I carry on using this method).

I enjoy the whole brewing process - I'm a scientist - and the end result (the beer) is not the only reason why I spend half a day tending a hot kettle. Like most here I like beer, but I probaby will not be brewing big batches of the same recipe, or even style for that matter, over and over. I certainly would like to try a whole lot of different styles using different ingredients and techniques. My first brew I attempted was the Amarillo APA recommended on this site - which came out pretty darn well :thumbs: This was then followed up with the same maltbill, but instead of using amarillo I went with only NZ hops to produce a New Zealand PA - also pretty good. I've also done the Krispy Kolsch (also recommended on this site) an amber ale (BCS) and an English brown ale (also BCS). These were not great but still drinkable - I did have some issues with my system at the time. I'm going to have a go at a lager next as I am able to control fermentation temperature. I guess the longterm plan is to brew a variety of styles whilst gaining experience and tweeking my processes . Many of my friends still drink the ubiquitous fizzy yellow stuff so I don't want to go over the top and put them off craft beer/homebrew when they come over - no big, boozy, hop-forward, funky beers at this stage

This doesn't really answer your question, but gives you some insight into my brewing plans. I'd be very interested to hear what styles you think would suit the overnight no-chill method. I do have access to an immersion chiller but would prefer to not use it to save time and water, if possible.

Thanks in advance
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Re: Transferring near-boiling wort into cube

Post #15 made 3 months ago
Surfboy66 wrote:This I left for 24 hrs and pitched the yeast the following day at the required temperature. (I hadn't really considered the hops sitting in the wort "stewing" until you mentioned it - so I may have some issues there? Will probably bag the hops in future if I carry on using this method).
Sorry, I should have mentioned this. I haven't used this method for heavily hopped styles yet. I have used and not used a bag to hold the hops to be able to remove them at the end of the boil, and the results have been good in either case (a Kolsch and a Marzen, styles where such faults would be noticeable), so for a low amount of hops it may not be a problem.
One important detail that I mentioned before is that I always siphon the cold wort away from the kettle to another container (10L demijohns in my case) leaving all trub behind. I then clean the kettle and put the wort back in (making sure to aerate it well) and pitch the yeast. This means that even if those hops were left "stewing" overnight, I still get rid of them before fermentation starts.
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Re: Transferring near-boiling wort into cube

Post #17 made 3 months ago
PistolPatch wrote:
3 months ago
What the above does not mention though is the obvious. Don't worry, the obvious is missing from many threads, forums, magazine articles and podcasts. The obvious could fill thousands of paragraphs.
I'm super-impressed at those three sentences I wrote as I have absolutely no idea now what I was referring to :lol:. I swear that during a recent operation I had they took out a bit of my brain without telling me. Very unethical!!!

I think most of the rest of what I wrote makes sense. I know that your reply Jon is excellent.

I'm really pleased that you started with a few of the recipes recommended here. Amarillo hops had a few poor vintages but I think they might be coming good again. It's time I brewed that recipe again. The Krispy Kolsch should always be fantastic and, for your lager, this Munich Helles recipe is another robust (reliable) one.

You mention above that you are a scientist. This, I think, is excellent but it can also cause some trouble. Five years ago I wrote about Number Respect and Disrespect. I suspect that still holds true.

It's been a long day but I'm frustrated I haven't answered your question re what styles are suited to "Overnight Chilling." To be honest I'm not sure I can answer the question despite the arrogant certainty I displayed in my prior post :P.

There are not only so many new hop varieties appearing each year, some new hop varieties change their character completely in their first five years and all hop varieties change in some way from one vintage to the next. When "Delayed Pitching," first arose here in Ozland, I had friends that would brew the same APA, actively chill one batch and "delay pitch" the next one and we could not detect a difference. I've also done actual side by sides of some recipes and triangular-tested for differences. (The results will be buried here on the forum somewhere. Search for "side-by-side" will probably find it.). But, I've also read of some other experiments where changes have been noticed. The stewing tizoc mentioned was brought up in a Melbourne experiment - a few tasters noticed a vegetable taste in the "no-chilled," beer.

So, does this mean that the higher the amount of hops in the recipe the more chance there is for error if active chilling is not employed?

Well, once again, I am at a loss as some lager brewers whom I highly respect will swear that active chilling is necessary (so a cold break occurs) and others I know and have the same respect for do not find it a problem.

I have two identical brew set-ups. Normally I will brew using "best or safest known practices" but having the two set-ups has lead to me doing and documenting side-by-side experiments for about a decade. I've passive chilled a heap of batches and kettle-chilled quite a few too (just a towel over the top is fine). I have never found a problem with either of the latter. (Well, except when I kept some no-chills for over 18 months in cubes where the seal was faulty. Was it the seal or the 18 months that was the problem? I don't know.)

Hopefully the above inspires confidence Jon? The only poor beers I've made were through my own stupidity (using old yeast) or using faulty equipment (brand new kegs with faulty welds). Keep things as simple as you can for now, for sure!

:peace:
PP
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Re: Transferring near-boiling wort into cube

Post #18 made 3 months ago
Hey @PistolPatch , cheers for that. I'll give the Munich Helles a go in the near future.

I work in a commercial diagnostic veterinary laboratory and spend most of my day analysing blood results using sophisticated instruments and analysers. I am also quite heavily involved in the quality assurance of the laboratory and this paragraph from the link you attached made me smile.

Most of the measurements we take in home brewing are fraught with inaccuracy for a start. For example, refractometers and hydrometers are very prone to inaccuracy. You really need to take several samples to be sure. Prior to that, you need to be sure that the actual instrument is accurate. The list goes on and on.”

The instruments we use in our laboratory (identical to those used in human labs) have inherent analytical error. I know that if we were to measure an analyte, say, 10 X, we will not necessarily get the same result on all occasions. The variation in results from repeat testing of the same sample is referred to as the precision of the test. What I find amusing is that I know and expect a degree of imprecision in the results I get from the state-of-the-art laboratory instruments I use in my job. Yet as homebrewers, many of us accept the results we get from our $20 hydrometers/thermometers and $100 pH meters as being correct. This doesn’t even address the question of accuracy – or closeness to the “true value” – using these small, cheap, hand held devices. Further, an instrument may be very precise and the result repeatable, however, it can be hugely inaccurate and way off the “true value” of the sample when determined by the “gold standard” or “reference” method of measurement.

This isn’t meant to be a rant, but I think that some people are not necessarily aware of the limitations of these (cheap) instruments we use on brew day.

Don’t sweat the numbers – it’s only beer! :drink:

Thanks again

Cheers
Jon
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Re: Transferring near-boiling wort into cube

Post #19 made 3 months ago
Surfboy66 wrote:
3 months ago
This isn’t meant to be a rant...
There can never be enough rants on this subject Jon :thumbs:
Thanks for writing that. So nice to hear this from someone with access to "real" instruments as there is a diabolical amount of misinformation out there. I'll add two links...
Readings from Eleven Thermometers at Seven Temperature Points
Hydrometer and Refractometer Test Using Sugar, Coffee and Urine
:P
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